Talk:Superman

According to "Countdown - Search for Ray Palmer: Red Son" (which has been pushed back to Dec 12th 2007) the Earth-30 Superman is AFTER Stalin, which is fundamentally different from Red Son who was raised by his reality's Stalin as his successor. Thus the Red Son and the Earth-30 Supermen are two seperate beings.

Most of these 52 multiverse characters will be shown to be fundamentally differ from their source storylines as the same way that the Earth-22 Superman does not have a source Earth anymore which was destroyed by the war that the true Kingdom Come Superman was able to prevent, and like the Vampire Batman of the original Red Rain storyline was able to keep his sanity after being converted into a vampire and continues the protection of humanity where as the Earth-43 Batman is shown directly not to have that same attitude and is openly killing humans directly after his conversion, even kiling and converting his own Robin as shown in "Search for Ray Palmer: Red Rain"

But I will wait to next week for "Search for Ray Palmer: Red Son" is released. Kal_l_fan 23:23 7 December 2007


 * Thing is that even though they may differ from their original stories, it could officially be the same people, as they may just have gone through some kind of retcon(s). The Clever Guy  ( Talk  &bull;  Contribs  &bull;  E-Mail ) 09:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)


 * Yeah but they are complete retcons on the fundamental basis which completely alters the characters from what was, making them into two similar -- but completely seperate -- characters. Again Red Son was raised by Stalin, whereas if the story is maintained the Earth-30 Superman does not comes to Russia until after Stalin is dead which fundamentally changes the character.  But again I will wait for the actual "Search for Ray Palmer: Red Son" to be released before any further pursuit on this.
 * Kal_l_fan 04:31 8 December 2007

Too much reverse editing going on here
There's way too much reverse editing going on with this page. I've been asked to lock it down, but I don't think that's really necessary. I have faith in our fellow editors. Skimming through the history, it looks like most of the changes are organizational in nature. Currently, I think the page looks much more organized than it has in the past. However, we cannot have multiple editors reversing another's edits just for the heck of it. It's a disservice to readers visiting the site, and quite simply, its poor database management. If there is a dispute concerning factual material, it should be addressed either here, on the interested parties' talk pages or (preferably) in the forums where other editors can contribute to the discussion with greater accessibility. Hopefully whatever dispute exists between the editors can be resolved civilly. If the reverse editing continues without any communication, then I'll have to lock the page down for a bit until a decision can be made. --Brian Kurtz 06:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * How is the layout now? I updated the disambig template to handle images and glorify the main version of the character, but I didn't know if you guys wanted to use it here.  It's inspired by your pages, actually, since you guys usually have a header image of some sort, and seem to enjoy putting in descriptions at the top of disambigs.


 * I didn't change any facts, or even any words, just shifted things around a bit. I know it'd be nice to fit the Superman logo in there too.  Any ideas where it could go in the current layout?  In the header bar?  Somewhere in the text?  Below the main image of Superman?


 * I don't have a problem with reversions, but I do like to hear reasons, like Brian's "The layout looks funny to me".


 * &mdash; Nathan (Peteparker) (Earth-1218) (talk &bull; contribs &bull; email) 06:58, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

I'm transferring all of the back-and-forth that was on my talk to here. The Paradox 07:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Superman Page
your edits are too disorganized. I know I have been away for some time -- personally becuase of this SAME situation. But I ask that you stop this before we start getting into a ping pong match Kal_l_fan


 * My edits are factual and logical. Your's contains major errors and mixes classifications of Superman, such as including the evil Superboy-Prime in the first section. The Paradox 05:24, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * I'm sorry but your edits are NOT factual as SuperMAN Prime is the same EXACT character as is son of Jor-El and Lara of the Earth-Prime dimension and is a MAJOR version of the character.
 * And your classifications mixes the 52 multiverse with pre-crisis characters which are clearly seperate as well as minor versions.

Kal_l_fan


 * "Major" should be determined by something other than one's opinion of the villain de jour. By that standard, the Cyborg Superman ranks at least as high as Superboy-Prime. (I refer to him as such, BTW, to avoid confusion with the DC One Million version.) Your "MAJOR" version hasn't even carried a title, much less dozens of them over the course of 70 years. The Paradox 05:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Personal opinion aside Superman Prime is the same character Kal-EL and has the same background. The Earth Prime version is the same as the Earth-Two Kal-L is to the current main incarnation.
 * You have mixed pre-crisis characters with the 52 multiversion and intergrated minor versions making a mess of the page.
 * Kal_l_fan


 * They don't have the same background - Prime's Rao ungulfed his Krypton and he's still a teenager, the Golden Age was from race of superbeings, Earth-One had a superhero identity as an eight year old and a veritible city of fellow survivors, and Post-Crisis wasn't "born" until he hit Kansas. Multiversal counterparts are just that, counterparts. What marks the four "major" ones isn't the spelling of their name (Earth-2 would be there otherwise) or their Earthly upbringing, but the fact that they've been the "main" Superman as published by DC Comics. (Although All-Star is debatable on that one.) None of the others have that. The Paradox 06:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * They DO have the same background --
 * born on Krypton,
 * son of Jor-El / L and Lara
 * sent to Earth to avoid the destruction of their source planet
 * have developed superhuman powers and abilities
 * and major interest and researched versions of the character.


 * >"What marks the four "major" ones isn't the spelling of their name (Earth-2 would be there otherwise) or their Earthly upbringing, but the fact that they've been the "main" Superman as published by DC Comics".
 * No, the Earth-Two Superman was NEVER the main Superman. As stated by DC REPEATEDLY, Kal-L is a retcon of the true Golden Age Superman and NOT the same character.  He was ALWAYS written against the Silver Age Superman and never been the featured star character in ANY book as the SPECIFIC Earth-Two Superman, not even in the Mr and Mrs Superman stories which were in the Superman Family series.


 * What marks the "main" Superman is the fact that they are Kal-El, regardless of their personal development (good or bad) and Kel-El Prime IS a major Superman who when most look up on these pages should not be scrolling around to find. The 52 multiverse versions should not be mixed in with other dimension versions.
 * What you have made of this page is a mess.
 * Kal_l_fan 11 October 2008

You guys clearly both have the same goals, and we all want this page to be the best it can be. Maybe instead of arguing amongst ourselves, we could work together and survey the rest of the community to solve this problem officially, instead of trying to find the answer through another futile post war (which nobody wants). Maybe one of you could post a poll onto the forums? And that would add group consensus to what's otherwise an argument based on differing personal opinions. (I'd do it myself, but I don't really understand the problem.)
 * - Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 15:05, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Yeah. What he said. --Brian Kurtz 17:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)


 * Simple question -- how is adding oneshot versions like Dead Earths series which most do not look nor consider relevant making the page better? Other than fans of that particular cross over series who already know that info, I do not see that as adding value anymore than me adding all of the external one shot so called "imaginary" versions of the character.

And again mixing all the precrisis versions with the 52 multiverse versions under the all inclusive heading of alternate universe when the 52 multiverse is specifically designed to be fundamentally different from the precrisis realities makes no sense at all to me.

As to the poll on the DCCP forums, I do not even see the links for the DC forums anymore. And there was not that amount of people who used the forum in the first place other than the admins as far as I remember. Kal_l_fan 2008 October 12 02:07 (UTC)