DC Database talk:Prime Earth Project

Okay, go nuts!
This page is where you can discuss our policy on the splitting of New Earth and Prime Earth versions of characters, and explain or justify your decision/intention to create Prime Earth pages for certain characters. Please remember that if you do create a Prime Earth version of this page, to add them to the list of disambigs to update on the project page this talk page is associated with. Okay, go nuts!

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Victor Fries (Prime Earth)
Let's get the ball rolling with Victor Fries (Prime Earth). With Batman Annual Vol 2 1, the writers pretty much took his origin and through it out the window. Like, Fries was a murderer since childhood and he doesn't even know Nora. She's just some random lady he fell in love who's inside a cryogenic tube! Approve of a Prime Earth page? --- Harold "The Party" Rocks  talk  21:01, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I agree. He and Nora both need Prime Earth pages (her last name is revealed, but I've forgotten what it is). - Hatebunny (talk) 21:03, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Someone added her to pages as "Nora Fields". They probably merged the two. -- Tupka 217 21:04, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Question. For Victor, should I use the textless Batman Annual Vol 2 1 picture or does anyone have a better suggestion? --- Harold "The Party" Rocks  talk  21:08, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I need to check the annual, so I see if I can come up with an internal panel. How do we handle the PEthing on Nora? She's essentially two characters. -- Tupka 217 21:11, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Until we get a better interior image, it'll have to do. He has some appearances in Birds of Prey as well, and one of the Night of the Owls crossovers (Red Hood, I think?). For the PEthing... hmmm... EITHER link to the Nora Fries page as the "previous version" OR Nora Fields, and use the Nora Fries disambig. The latter seems a bit more useful, but she is not the "previous version".- Hatebunny (talk) 21:16, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * I used a comic single panel from Batman Annual Vol 2 1 that was conveniently in his New Earth gallery. Anyway, you said something about mentioning disambigs? Where does that go again? --- Harold "The Party" Rocks  talk  21:24, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just add Victor Fries and Mister Freeze to this page under the line (along with Nora Fries and Nora Fields if you make her a page too). You can either try to apply the dual-highlight version of the disambig template to those pages yourself, or leave that to us. Either way, we're going to check the list periodically, make sure it's done properly (or just done), and then remove them from the list. - Hatebunny (talk) 21:31, August 22, 2013 (UTC)

Edward Nygma (Prime Earth)
Alright. Round two. Edward Nigma (Prime Earth). Although not as blunt with retconning as Freeze is, in this continuity, Edward acts as Philip Kane's mischievous advisor of Wayne Enterprises while Bruce is assumed dead. Prime Earth Riddler is portrayed as being an egotistical wise-guy instead of the clue-crazed maniac he is on New Earth. In Batman Vol 2 23, Philip Kane calls him by his full name "Edward Nigma." This retcons the fact that he legally changed his name from "Nashton" to "Nigma" while taking up the Riddler alias. Prime Earth page? --- Harold "The Party" Rocks  talk  23:50, August 22, 2013 (UTC)


 * It's "Nygma", actually. Just checked, but I'm okay with this. - Hatebunny (talk) 00:03, August 23, 2013 (UTC)


 * I guess I was staring at the Edward Nashton page too long. Edward Nygma (Prime Earth). Fixing the title. --- Harold "The Party" Rocks  talk  00:27, August 23, 2013 (UTC)

Anthony Zucco (Prime Earth)
I was on the fence with this one but I'll bring him up anyway. Anthony Zucco (Prime Earth). On New Earth, Anthony Zucco was a cruel mob boss who was practically obliterated by chopper gunfire in front of Batman and Nightwing. On Prime Earth, Zucco's unspecified death was faked, now has wife and small kids under a different alias, and shows redemption for his character. He is not portrayed as the cruel, uncaring mob boss he was on New Earth. What do you guys think? --- Haroldrocks  talk  13:25, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Wait, choppers? I thought he died of a heart attack in Dark Victory. -- Tupka 217 13:32, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * His New Earth page lists Batman Vol 1 438 as his death. On that page, it says that Batman and Nightwing watched Zucco get gunned down by a helicopter. "Raising his arms above his head and celebrating his first moment outside, Zucco is cut down by a hail of bullets fired from the WGCN news helicopter." --- Haroldrocks  talk  15:31, August 25, 2013 (UTC)


 * Just wanted to bring up this guy again. What do you guys think? --- Haroldrocks  talk  22:40, December 16, 2013 (UTC)


 * Sure. -- Tupka 217 22:44, December 16, 2013 (UTC)

Basil Karlo (Prime Earth)
Is Basil Karlo getting a Prime Earth page? I saw his red-linked appearance listed on Forever Evil Vol 1 2 and figured I should get the "Okay" here first before doing anything. --- Haroldrocks  talk  16:28, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * I'm not ready much Batman but I think you're safe to make him one.


 * Anyone else notice that we've really been waiting on making Batman-related pages but all these conversations are about Bat-villains. Kyletheobald (talk) 17:50, October 5, 2013 (UTC)


 * To clarify, Kyle, should I ignore the red-linked Batman villains from now on? --- Haroldrocks  talk  01:10, October 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Nope. You're totally fine. I just found it amusing that pretty much every character is open game outside Bats and the GL's and the only ones I've noticed so far are Batman related. Kyletheobald (talk) 01:31, October 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Oh, alright. Haha. I don't follow any other heroes so I only make the pages for the villains I know. Anyway, to hasten the process a little, I'll just make a list of Bat-villains that don't have Prime Earth pages that might need them. If any blatantly don't need pages, I'll just cross them off.


 * Joker (Prime Earth) (Redirected to New Earth, but I thought I'd include him anyway. Just to be safe.)
 * Harvey Dent (Prime Earth)
 * Jonathan Crane (Prime Earth)
 * Bane (Prime Earth)
 * Ra's al Ghul (Prime Earth)
 * Talia al Ghul (Prime Earth) (Also a redirect)
 * Pamela Isley (Prime Earth)
 * Jervis Tetch (Prime Earth)
 * Lazlo Valentin (Prime Earth)
 * --- Haroldrocks  talk  20:29, October 7, 2013 (UTC)


 * Of the people on the list you made, only the Mad Hatter and the Scarecrow have had significant changes made to their origin stories. Everyone else has merely appeared - basically as the same character as before. - Hatebunny (talk) 20:14, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Alright. No problem. Then I'll just work on those two, then. --- Haroldrocks  talk  20:27, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Actually, what about Joker? With our (debatable) origin story given in Batman Vol 2 23.1: The Joker, and how he was handled at the beginning of his run, along with various other things, he seems like he might have changed a suitable amount to justify it. Not to mention he's been showing quite a different face to the public (literally and figuratively). I could be wrong, though. - GZilla311 (talk)


 * Although I'd like to see a Joker (Prime Earth) page, it could be justified for the other side that his childhood is never really touched on on New Earth anyway, and that Death of the Family doesn't really add much to his character to deserve a page. --- Haroldrocks  talk  21:53, October 8, 2013 (UTC)


 * Despite my opinion that Scott Snyder doesn't get the Joker as a character, I don't know if the character being a different interpretation counts as the character being a different character. - Hatebunny (talk) 21:55, October 8, 2013 (UTC)

Prime Earth First Appearances
I noticed that about two-thirds of the Prime Earth pages have the historical first appearance & a third has the current first appearance. Is there a consensus as to which should be used? I personally prefer the current first appearance (or maybe both) with the historical mentioned in notes or trivia. --Mcwoody


 * My opinion is that it should be New 52 first in the infobox since the note has the original. It lets readers know where to actually find the new 52 first since the note only lists the series and it adds them to the New 52 character category instead of Golden Age, Silver Age or Modern Age. This isn't a set policy though. This is probably as good a place as any to discuss it. Kyletheobald (talk) 14:02, October 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * I think it should be original first appearance in the infobox, and first appearance in this continuity in the notes. I think it's silly for new readers to click on the Superman page and read that he was created in 2011. - Billy Arrowsmith (Talk), 14:05, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

New Earth Big Three Character Names
I know this isn't directly related, but it does stand to how difficult it is to distinguish some of these things now.

On the pages for Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, and perhaps others I'm missing, we have them linked as "Superman (Clark Kent)", "Wonder Woman (Diana Prince)", and "Batman (Bruce Wayne)". Now, this would normally be all well and good. It's got both of the continuities in two of those. ...but Wonder Woman has a new page, for her Prime Earth version. Should we change the titles of those pages to "Kal-El (New Earth)", etc etc? For sake of consistency. On the same token as people not wanting to see a late appearance of a well-established hero as their first in the new continuity, they could click on a page linking to what they believe to be Wonder Woman or someone else, and end up in their earlier one when they don't want it.

Therefore, I'm proposing that we change the titles of those pages to as I said above (with Diana of Themyscira (New Earth) for Wonder Woman), and and link the things that they are now to the Superman, Wonder Woman, and Batman disambiguation pages. It seems like needless confusion.

Also, if I'm forgetting someone, sorry about that.

GZilla311 (talk) 15:17, October 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * This question gets brought up over and over (if I'm understanding you correctly). The reason the big guys break the pattern is for searching's sake. If some random person on the internet wants to learn more about Superman, they will look up "Superman" or "Clark Kent," not "Kal-El (New Earth)" as we originally had it. So, recently, we changed the big ones to "Codename (Common Name)" in order to get to the top of the search engines' results. --- Haroldrocks   talk  20:16, October 9, 2013 (UTC)

Prankster
It was recently revealed in Nightwing Vol 3 24 that the Prankster is Oswald Loomis. If the Prankster was anybody else, I would have made him a page already. But, since this is Prime Earth's incarnation of Loomis, I wanted to post it here first.|Nightwing Vol 3 24}} --- Haroldrocks  talk  22:11, October 9, 2013 (UTC) hamburger!
 * Note to whoever: Spoiler's pretty useless is you read the diffs instead of the actual page ;/
 * Just give him a new page. He hasn't been portrayed consistently New Earth (was his weightloss ever explained?) but this is sufficiently different for a PE page. And like you said, if normally he would've gotten a page already.-- Tupka 217 22:16, October 9, 2013 (UTC)


 * I tried to change the appearances quick and painlessly. Anyway, the picture I had my eye on is the WTF cover for Nightwing Vol 3 20 (?). Would there be any way I could use that for the picture or...
 * EDIT: It's really Nightwing Vol 3 19. --- Haroldrocks  talk  23:24, October 9, 2013 (UTC)
 * I believe the weight loss was courtesy of Neron in Underworld Unleashed. Kyletheobald (talk) 02:57, October 15, 2013 (UTC)

The Question (Prime Earth)
Due to the fact that his identity is not given, even if we can assume it's still Vic Sage, the new Question's history, "power" (facelessness in truth), and name are different in this new continuity. Should he have a page?

GZilla311 (talk) 17:51, October 15, 2013 (UTC)GZilla311


 * Yes. He should have a new page. Kyletheobald (talk) 13:01, October 17, 2013 (UTC)

Jack Ryder
Given his inclusion in the New 52 on several (extremely inconsistent) appearances, should we make a page for Jack Ryder? Considering he is now deliberately a separate entity from the Creeper.

GZilla311 (talk) 07:00, October 27, 2013 (UTC)GZilla311


 * I'd say he's different enough, he really ought to get a new page now. Kyletheobald (talk) 16:22, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Villain Month Characters
I'm wondering if we should look through the remaining sheets of villains who have new spotlights in the New 52, and decide on who deserves full new sheets. For those who exist, but have not been given new pages (and have not been told not to have them), we have this list:

Shauna Belzer (Prime Earth) (Ventriloquist)

DeSaad (Prime Earth)

Duela Dent (Prime Earth) (Joker's Daughter)

Bane (Prime Earth) (this one's more debatable and unlikely, probably just a redirect)

Josua Michael Allen (Prime Earth) (Parasite)

Anton Arcane (Prime Earth)

Barbara Minerva (Prime Earth) (The Cheetah)

First Born (Prime Earth)

Think we should get these? Some could probably be just added in, but others seem like they should have full pages.

GZilla311 (talk) 06:59, October 27, 2013 (UTC)GZilla311


 * I'm not reading the books most of these characters appear in but Desaad and Cheetah can get new pages for sure. As for Ventriloquist, she's a new character entirely right? If a character has NOT appeared before they reboot, they can get a new page without any discussion. Kyletheobald (talk) 16:22, October 27, 2013 (UTC)

Darkseid's World
From various comments on his actions (through implication or direct mention), Darkseid's New 52 incarnation appears to have only one incarnation to the various universes of the New 52, and does not appear to reside in Prime Earth (given DeSaad's attempts to return to Apokolips revolving around a Boom Tube and no other possible methods, as well as the very limited actions of the Apokoliptians).

In that vein, should we rename the articles involving the New 52 New Gods? Orion (if he gets a new one), Izaya (ditto), Uxas, Steppenwolf, and DeSaad, that is. I propose as an alternative to "Name (Prime Earth)" for them to be "Name (Post-Flashpoint)", in the spirit of articles that are mentioned as "Post-Zero Hour" and such. It seems to be a far better way to define them than to say that the New Gods are from Prime Earth, a prospect that seems increasingly unlikely.

GZilla311 (talk) 17:55, November 11, 2013 (UTC)GZilla311


 * I don't like the inconsistency that brings. I have enough "Post-Crisis" links to clean up as is.
 * What's the case with the Fourth World now is what was always the case: it's basically a pocket dimension. This time, they've just used the New 52 to explore something that was always a possibility: it's a pocket dimension accessible from various universes. -- Tupka 217 18:00, November 11, 2013 (UTC)

Gorilla Grodd
Since I already did the rest of Flash's rogues would it be fine if I made Grodd a Prime Earth page? (I'm asking on the talk page for record keeping purposes only). Nep  Everything's impossible until somebody does it.  02:51, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Barbara Gordon
We really need to move the new 52 history to it's own page as the new earth and prime earth versions of Barbara have different biological parents and the prime earth version regained her ability to walk after 3 years where the new earth version was confined to a wheelchair to for longer then that and was still crippled when flashpoint happened.DalekSupreme13 (talk) 13:16, December 10, 2013 (UTC)


 * I believe we haven't made her a page yet because she's part of the Batman family, and they're strictly off-limits. --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  13:42, December 10, 2013 (UTC)

Krypto (Prime Earth)
I think it's about time Krypto got his own Prime Earth page, is that fine? Nep  Everything's impossible until somebody does it.  10:40, December 12, 2013 (UTC)

Roman Sionis (Prime Earth)
I can't believe I didn't think of this earlier: Roman Sionis (Prime Earth). He's pretty different. First off, he's not dead. I suppose Catwoman's execution of him was removed. Second, he has mind control powers now with the mask. Last, although, I admit, this isn't a very good point, he's bald. --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  21:45, January 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * Agreed. - Hatebunny (talk) 22:08, January 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think any (non-GL) character that was previously dead can have a page. -- Tupka 217 22:16, January 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * With that being said, should we wait for Reaper (Prime Earth) to have his identity revealed before we make him a page? I mean, Judson Caspian (New Earth) was dead and now there's a guy that looks just like him alive. --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  22:21, January 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think any character we're unsure on the name, we should just make it with the codename. Then if/when they're named, we can slap up the move tag. Or we can go to twitter and ask the creator, though that can lead to the Freight Train dilemma. Kyletheobald (talk) 22:47, January 9, 2014 (UTC)


 * I like going to the creators on Twitter when we have absolutely no idea on the name. With the Freight Train thing, we had half the name and asked for the rest, and we ended up with too much. I think it could work with Reaper since we're almost completely in the dark with this guy and he might have died in Arkham War #4. But, if you're still shellshocked from the Freight Train incident, I understand, and we can just make a simple "Reaper (Prime Earth)" page. --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  23:05, January 9, 2014 (UTC)

Jeremiah Arkham (Prime Earth)
How about Jeremiah Arkham (Prime Earth)? He's kind of a mess in the New 52. Sometimes he's the head of Arkham Asylum (Detective Comics #9), sometimes he's an inmate (Batman #1), and sometimes he's just a normal doctor (I forget the issue). I don't know what to take as canon to use as evidence, honestly. --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  13:34, January 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * I think we can ignore Batman #1. That came out so soon after the reboot there were bound to be problems with. Clock King also appeared in that, even though he would be introduced radically different in Green Arrow, and old-style Creeper had a photo appearance in JLI #1 well before his character was reintroduced properly. -- Tupka 217 13:46, January 11, 2014 (UTC)


 * To make matters worse, I think Jeremiah Arkham appears as Black Mask in Forever Evil: Arkham War Vol 1 2. In the first scene in Blackgate (the red pages), it appears that Jeremiah Arkham is fighting Mister Combustible in the background of the big picture on top. Then, Sionis appears later in #4. Jeez, is this just rampant Retcon Roulette? --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  01:17, January 13, 2014 (UTC)

Doom Patrol (Prime Earth) and Mary Elizabeth Kane (Prime Earth)
I didn't see any discussions about these two, and they were created by a new user. I wanted to mention them here to ensure that they're alright. (Also, does this look unnecessarily indented. It does for me) --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  11:38, January 21, 2014 (UTC)


 * I saw them. Doom Patrol is probably fine, since we already have a New Earth page (usually, for teams, we like to not have earth designations, but when we do, we might as well split, if they're significantly different).


 * As for Bette Kane, I warned the new user that she was a Bat-family character, and the page shouldn't have been made yet - but there was no use undoing the work when the goal is the same. (which should not be taken by anybody reading this as an opportunity to make bat-family characters thinking we won't do things about it). - Hatebunny (talk) 17:43, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

League of Assassins (Prime Earth)
This page has been in "Red Link Limbo" for a while now. Do we have any intentions for a Prime Earth page or should the links simply go back to New Earth? --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  17:30, January 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Like Doom Patrol, I think the fact that we have a New Earth page for them instead of a catch-all page suggests we should make a PE page. The weird connections to Lobdell's ridiculous Red Hood origins make it a pretty different team, from the ground up. - Hatebunny (talk) 17:43, January 24, 2014 (UTC)


 * Alrighty, then. I'll get to work on the page pretty soon. I think I'll use the Batman and Robin Vol 2 23.3: Ra's al Ghul and the League of Assassins image, unless someone has a better idea. --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  17:47, January 24, 2014 (UTC)

Harvey Dent (Prime Earth)
Seeing as Harvey Dent has been reimagined as a darker take on the character (a mob lawyer), should we give him his own page?

GZilla311 (talk) 00:21, January 25, 2014 (UTC)


 * It's probably best to wait, at least, until the The Big Burn arc is finished. - Hatebunny (talk) 00:30, January 25, 2014 (UTC)

Arnold Wesker (Prime Earth)
It seems the Ventriloquist baton has been passed off to Shauna Belzer in the New 52, but Wesker had a couple of appearances in the beginning. Honestly, this concept feels a little unsettling. Arnold Wesker, previously dead, is revived for two cameos in the New 52 and is then abandoned for a new female version. Thoughts about a PE page? --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  02:42, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * These kinds of appearances annoy me, because the instinct of most of the editors on this wiki is to make a page for everyone who appears, regardless of they said a single word or not. In cases where it becomes clear it was a continuity gaff, I feel like it's best that we don't make a page, and perhaps add a note to the new earth page indicating his appearance there, and the probability that it was retconned, and not a legit appearance - Hatebunny (talk) 03:01, February 3, 2014 (UTC)


 * I would place it in line with Diana of Paradise Island (Earth-Two)'s appearance in the JSA shortly after COIE. It's a goof; it's just crowdfiller. I'd say no new page but only as note. -- Tupka 217 11:25, February 3, 2014 (UTC)

Mongul (Prime Earth)
It wasn't discussed, but the Mongul (Prime Earth) page was created. (And terribly, I must add. The image wasn't sourced and there was zero information what-so-ever. It really is an eyesore.) Is it a keep or a delete? --- <font color="Purple">Haroldrocks  talk  01:42, February 4, 2014 (UTC)
 * I didn't add any information because I'm not very familiar with the character, but noticed many links to the page so I figured I'd get the ball rolling on it before I realized it was recommended that DCnU character page creation be discussed. I think the page should be kept since DC plans to create a new continuity for the character on Prime Earth, so while many of the old characterizations and events may apply, they only do so insofar as they are discussed in New 52 comics. --Odie5533 (talk) 02:38, February 4, 2014 (UTC)


 * He isn't vastly different but he did get a new origin. I'm fine with him having a Prime page. Kyletheobald (talk) 03:23, February 4, 2014 (UTC)