I am attempting to assemble a reading order for myself for Jason Todd as Robin. According to the wiki, Earth-One's Jason Todd's last appearance is supposedly Batman Vol 1 400, with the cover date of October, 1986. The wiki also says that New Earth's Jason Todd's first appearance as Batman Vol 1 408. However, there are a number of issues where NE Jason is listed as being the Jason in the issue...but they were published between #400 and #408.
I understand the other characters in these issues (such as #401-403) are also listed as New Earth characters, and I figure their being NE characters may be part of why Jason is listed as the NE version. But still, I need some help figuring out a proper reading order. Is it that #408 is the first chronological appearance because it's a flashback issue? It's not listed as flashback, but I am trying to figure this split out. I am somewhat confused here.
Could you be of help? I am trying to figure out the appearance order between the cover dates of October, 1986, and October, 1987, for Jason Todd. I am trying to have the list transition between Earth-One and New Earth as seamlessly as possible.
As a follow-up, the issues between Batman #400 and #408 include the following:
+ Batman Vol 1 401-403
+ Detective Comics Vol 1 568
+ Detective Comics Vol 1 569-574
+ New Teen Titans Vol 2 #26-31
- Tales of the Teen Titans Vol 1 #86-91 (These issues simply reprint NTTv2 #26-31)
I did say I was hoping to get advice on the reading order between October to October of 1986-1987. Batman #408 released in June. So there are still issues between June, 1987, and October, 1987. I suppose I shall list those as well, given that I would like advice on the order of those issues.
+ Batman Vol 1 408-412
+ Detective Comics Vol 1 579
+ Batman Annual Vol 1 11
If you can help me arrange these, I would be grateful. I am confused by the continuity shift.
From the get-go, you should know a couple of things:
The Batman switch from Earth-One to New Earth was not as clean as you'd expect.
Jason Todd was a character who was living on borrowed time from the beginning of Post-Crisis continuity.
Let me elaborate:
Unlike Superman's instant continuity reboot after the Crisis, the Batman books had to "make it up as they went along". That is why there are "fillers" between the end of Earth-One (Batman #400) and Batman: Year One (
#407). Basically, issues
#401, 402 and 403 don't really feel like a different continuity from the previous one.
After Year One, DC officially rebooted Jason's origin in issue
#408 and everything that comes afterwards in the Batman comic is "officially" New Earth. But the issue doesn't end there...
Over in Detective Comics, things were much more complicated. That series didn't really have a send-off like Batman #400. Detective Comics #567 is the closest thing but it's still a moot point what continuity that book takes place in. So, let's just say that New Earth officially starts in Detective Comics #568. Because that book is part of the Legends crossover, it has to be New Earth... but in terms of character and continuity is still not clear. Not with Batman nor Robin. A very generic story.
And then come the first six issues of Detective by Mike W. Barr, starting in Detective Comics #569. If you go to the Notes section of that issue, you'll see that there's an extensive note about the strange continuity of these issues. Basically, Mike Barr had no intention or editorial guidance about the continuity change and things were pretty much the same as Earth-One continuity. And that includes Jason. Unlike New Earth Jason, the boy featured in Barr's stories was still the same Earth-One boy, but he existed in the New Earth continuity because his origin had not been rebooted yet and his personality had not been reshaped.
In other words, Jason didn't really became "New Earth Jason" until at least Detective Comics #579. That book marks his first appearance in Detective after his reboot.
Now the confusion comes because his first appearance is said to be in Batman #408, right? Well, that's because in the Batman Annual #13, there are Profile Pages that include Jason Todd and it says his first appearance is Batman #408. Basically, DC officially considered that one as Jason's first New Earth appearance and all previous stories prior to that and after the Crisis were now apocryphal.
And that's what I mean when I say Jason was living on borrowed time. With the continuity switch and the changing creative teams, there are not that many stories focusing on Jason as a character. Most of the time he is just a supporting character featured in the Batman books because he has to be. The writer who most developed New Earth Jason was Max Allan Collins, who rebooted his origin, so the best Jason stories of this era are from Batman. In Detective he was just the usual sidekick and I can't tell you much about the other titles he appeared in, but I'm guessing he has even less relevance there.
Basically, if you really want to read Jason's appearances chronologically, do it separately between Batman and Detective Comics because there is no cross-continuity and overall the stories are not heavy in character development for the most part.
This is what I did (and worked well enough):
Batman Annual #11
After that there's a creative team switch and Jason's minutes are counted. Let me know if you want a detailed reading order of that...
Oof, all of that certainly seems like a complicated mess of continuity. Still, I find the advice on the reading order for those you listed helpful.
So that I can conceptualize it, would you say that I could consider the stories featuring Jason after Batman #400 / DC #566 and before Batman #408 / DC #579 as effectively using Earth-One Jason Todd? I believe I understand the stories themselves have to be in New Earth, but in terms of characterization, it is almost as if Earth-One's JT rolled over into NE for a little while before his reboot in Batman #408?
I have yet to read much, since I am assembling this list so that I can buy the issues later, but from what I read, some of the issues in this "in-between" period of Jason continuity seem to have Jason with the same upbeat personality he had in the Earth-One stories I have read of him. So if I can treat those in-between stories as E-O Jason, I think I can conceptualize that in my brain.
Regarding your offer to provide a detailed reading order for a little bit after what you have already sent me, I would welcome it.
So far, my rough outline looks for the timespan looks like thus:
Batman Vol 1 401
Detective Comics Vol 1 568
Batman Vol 1 402-403
Detective Comics Vol 1 569-574
Legends Vol 1 2-3, 5-6: Robin (Jason) helps out during the Legends event.
New Teen Titans Vol 2 26-31: Robin rejoins the NTT to help them on one last mission to rescue Nightwing and Raven from Brother Blood, and Jason thanks the team and leaves in issue #31.
Tales of the Teen Titans Vol 1 86-91: These issues reprints NTTv2 #26-31.
Batman Vol 1 408-413
Batman Annual Vol 1 11
Detective Comics Vol 1 579-582
Batman Vol 1 415-420
Batman Vol 1 422
Batman Vol 1 424-428: “A Death in the Family”
New Titans Vol 1 55: Dick Grayson learns of Jason’s death and begins mourning him. Dick feels partially responsible since he is the one who gave Jason the Robin uniform and gave Jason his blessing to be Robin. Dick goes to Bruce to discuss Jason, but the two grieving heroes end up at each other’s throats.
Secret Origins Annual Vol 2 3: The NE history of the Teen Titans is relayed, and Jason is included in it, showing that his tenure as a Titan remained intact after CoIE.
Batman Vol 1 436-439: In this story, “Batman: Year Three,” Batman is trying to deal with Jason’s death, and Nightwing helps. Jason appears in flashbacks in issues #438-439, but he is not shown at all in #436-437, although all four issues deal with him, so the story may be significant for Jason readers.
If you have any insights as to how you would rearrange some of these entries, I welcome it. Also, if there is anything that needs added, I welcome that advice as well.
So that I can conceptualize it, would you say that I could consider the stories featuring Jason after Batman #400 / DC #566 and before Batman #408 / DC #579 as effectively using Earth-One Jason Todd?
Yes. There is no harm to assume that.
As for the list, it seems you have a pretty accurate reading order. It's even more complete than mine since I don't consider Origins or Titans books in the mix. So I'd say go ahead.
Well, that is certainly helpful. Thank you very much.
On a related topic, most of Earth-One Jason's appearances are in Batman and Detective Comics. I noticed when I pulled up the pages for some of these issues that the issues' stories seem to alternate between the Batman and Detective Comics titles. I have a couple questions:
Are these stories so interlocked that they need to be read in alternating order to gain the most from them? Sometimes, when I list appearances for a certain character who appears in multiple titles at once (particularly in older comics when the stories are more episodic), I tend to group them in such ways like "World's Finest Vol 1 92-98" and "Aquaman Vol 1 35-41" —— something to that extent. I understand that the issues would be published at the same time, but it would sometimes be easier for me to binge read multiple issues of a series and then switch to another. I always try to group them like this only up to an important issue that affects the characters in such a way as to affect future stories. Otherwise, I do not see much problem in terms of maintaining a canon in one's memory banks when reading episodic stories. But for these Batman/DC issues, I do not know how episodic they are. So, as far as I know, alternating could be absolutely necessary. Could you give some insights on this topic?
Regarding the alternating story model of Batman/DC, at what point does this cycle start for the two books and when does it end? If I read the titles before Jason's appearances, I want to make sure I'm reading in the correct order.
This storytelling device was used until the very end of the Bronze Age (or Earth-One continuity) in 1986 and 90% of the time, it is mandatory that you read those stories alternating between Batman and Detective. Otherwise, it simply wouldn't make any sense.
That's probably the biggest hurdle people find when going back to that era. Readers must alternate between series and for current lazy readership, it's too much of a hassle to make sense of the reading order. Which is a shame because the creative team of the time is phenomenal. Dick Giordano and Len Wein (editors); Gerry Conway and Doug Moench (writers); Don Newton and Gene Colan (artists)!! I mean, come on!
First I'm still not sure how your templates on this wikia work differently from the ones I usually go to. Second DC has been around for more than 80 years and this wikia has been around for an eighth of that, it could help future users/visitors find printed media that's been hard to find for decades than go to a website like ReadComicOnline for there comic needs.
I was not endorsing piracy and that's why we need "Collections" subsections so we can find collected editions that have not just new but old issues to research on. Also, Tupka217, can you provide links to the promos you mentioned?
I don't have links, but it comes up in conversations and I frequently make posts about sales Comixology has. And linking to collections doesn't mean those collections are easier to find than the single issues - many are out of print.
I'm not sure what a Collections/Reprints subsection adds that a note doesn't already do.
Collections focus on the collected editions/printed media the issues are collected in whereas the difference between "Note" and "Trivia" is not clear. We may not be able to find all the out of print collections but we can see all the collections there're in now and if something comes up we'll add it.
It's a note, and it should be under notes, not trivia. To my knowledge, it's there in most pages.
The problem with being a large wiki is that you cannot just change everything. While the list of collections and reprints is not complete by a longshot, changing the ones we have now doesn't actually alter that - it just creates more work with limited if any benefits.
Still can't see the difference. What besides collections is put under Note? I may not know all what the new streaming service provides but it could help with the list of collections and reprints with an occasional binge. Plus it would help if pages don't appear outside subcategories (way too many unnecessary repeats) and we have naviboxes
Funnily enough, I put notes in the Notes section. I personally don’t see the point of listing what trades the issue was collected in, even with a link. If I want to find an issue I want to read I buy the issue. I’ll usually end up buying the whole run as well, so I’ll do a minimal amount of research on the internet to suss out my options.
I prefer to add actual notes to Notes like editorial errors, such as those early issues where Alan Grant calls Harry Matthews “Harry Andrews” or how he changes the original spelling of Ran Va Daath. Pointing out when dead Lanterns mysteriously show up again or the constant inconsistencies with Lobo’s duribilty and healing qualities are also things I would want to read about in Notes, so that’s what I add.
Trivia is for trivia. Recording interesting facts about characters, pointing out homages/pastiches, and explaining inside gags.
I’ve just bought some more trades and wanted to finally add Lnightfall as well, but I’m confused as the two omnibuses (Vol 2 and 3) I was looking at dont seem to have an obvious Vol 1. It’s probably out of production but even on eBay and another national online store I can’t discern which is the correct Vol 1 omnibus as the issues included seem to overlap. I’m hoping the information is just wrong but I don’t want to risk buying two trades only to find out the first just overlaps.
Check out fishpond.co.nz and search “knightfall omnibus” and it comes up with only three options, but I would like your opinion if the first volume is indeed before the second two.
I'm baffled as well. The Vol 1 Omnibus that shows up in fishpond apparently collects every book in Knightfall and all Prodigal as well. What I find strange is that, to my knowledge, DC has not published such omnibus. All collected editions of that storyline have always been in 3 volumes.
Based on that, the results from fishpond for Vols 2 & 3 match those of the new edition collection and Vol 1 seems to be all 3 volumes of the Omnibus publication.
I mean, if I were you, I'd go for the digitalversioninstead; but since I know you like your comics on papyrus scrolls, I'd go for the first volume listed since it claims it has it all. I'd also double check their refund policy...
You may or may not have noticed that I have only been making one Discussion post (the year ones) every day. I'm keeping the number of my posts/comments synchronized with the year of each post. Because of this, I have had to miss out on a lot of discussions I have wanted to take part in.
I know it's not allowed for vandals who just are ban evading, but what about regular users?
I'd only use it for a few weeks. When I'm finished with my posts, I'd leave it.
The general practice is it's allowed as long as you don't present yourself as two different people, evade a ban, etc.
Acceptable second accounts, for example, are bots, or if you want to be known under different names in a Star Trek and Game of Thrones community. Or you don't want anyone to know you edit that saucy schoolgirl anime wiki.
Hey there, I was having a chat with Tupka in the hopes of utilizing the "titans" URL for a wiki covering the upcoming TV series Titans. He didn't take issue with it, but suggested I consult the other admins. Would you have a problem with this?
I'm going to be absolutely honest with you. I have no issue whatsoever with changing the URL. But that is mainly because I have no control over it. The two admins that can actually change it are MrBlonde267 (Chief Admin) and Jamie (Founder). They are the ones you should talk to, but a friendly warning is that they are against that, regardless of the other admins opinions.
I'd rather just keep the discussion in one place and emphasize how right S is, you have to talk to those two.
I'm more of a neutral opinion, like Tupka. I'm not a no, but my main hold up is there's no real benefit to us giving up the url besides out of the goodness of our hearts. If you had a strong persuasive argument to sell MrBlonde or Jamie as to why we should give it up, I think that's more a discussion.
Apologies for the multiple discussions, I just figured that placing one message might not attract the other admins, as seemed to be the case with the message on Tupka's wall, so I just went for the most recently active.
I'd have to say if anything I fail to see why removing one redirected URL from your arsenal could really disadvantage you, as you guys are plenty big and renowned. Of course, it is a matter of you guys simply being kind, so I do request this respectfully.
Not every character needs a page. Specially not those that are only recognized by their first name like "Ali", "Asher", "Astro" "Atkins". Most of those that belong to Earths One and Two are not relevant enough to warrant their own pages, so there's no need to link them or their appearances.
For those that actually have full names, maybe check the pages of the comics in which they appear (if indicated in the book). That way you make sure the character has a link in the comic page or if it's just one of those irrelevant dudes. If it's not indicated and we don't have a page, just assume it's not needed/wanted.
Same rules apply for the locations. There are very few places in the Batman mythos that warrant a page, so don't link those either.
The "Alfred Foundation" is unnecessary because canonically, it was later turned into the Wayne Foundation during the Silver Age. So no need to include that one there.
Lastly, I'd say maybe don't include those names of the unneeded characters or places. I wouldn't do it, but if you'd like to index the book completely, I say go ahead with the indications above.
Have you heard of Rachel Green, Bruce's attorney? She is listed (in the book, not the wiki) as having an appearance in Batman #585, but the page only mentions "Wayne's attorney." Should she get a red link or plain text?
She's also mentioned as being the attorney who assists in Dick's adoption and Bruce's trial over the whole Vesper Fairchild affair.
Yep. She was introduced in the prelude to the Bruce Wayne: Murderer/Fugitive storyline. I had to look it up though, because her role is minimal. I included her appearances in the storyline because I intended to read some of the books prior to that, to learn more about the character than just her failed attempt to save Bruce from prison and to see if she really deserves a page.
I haven't come to that yet and it might take a while. I'll leave it to your judgement. Regardless of what you include (text or link), I might change it eventually.