I had meant to send you a message yesterday, but all of my Sunday ended up dealing with a pesky troll on the wiki. Tups settled that once he awoke, so that's a plus. But I digress.
We had a brief discussion on your recent board post about staying in touch and otherwise having a means to talk about our nerdy passions more directly outside of the wiki. I am not sure if you have an account for it, but the majority of users I interact with outside of the board use Instagram. Some of us have personal accounts and "comic fan" accounts (for those who prefer to keep things a little more private). Some users have created accounts specifically to stay social away from the confines of the board. It's a good app/service for that sort of thing, as you can enter and leave group chats, have one-on-one chats, mute chats, etc. Of course, I may be explaining all of this to someone who already has an account. Again, I digress.
Point is, if you would like to reach out, please feel free to reach out to me via this Instagram account: nerdy_n8s_notes. I believe if you search for that, you will find me. The "profile image" is a logo of an open book and three 'N's. From there, I can let you know with whom all I am connected so that you can decide who all you would not mind talking to outside of the board.
...all of my Sunday ended up dealing with a pesky troll on the wiki.
Yeah, I saw that and did a little damage control in the early stages, but as I witness now, it sort of blew up. Sorry you had to go through that, but also goes to show that sometimes you just have to bring the hammer down on some users.
Anyways, I'm glad you contacted me to let me in on the way we can keep in touch outside of the wiki. As of right now, the only social media I actively manage is Twitter, mostly as the social outlet for my online persona. I have never used Instagram before or any other social media. I developed some sort of aversion to them for how time-consuming they can end up being.
That said, I'm inclined to create one personal ig account, if only to keep in touch with you guys. I'm willing to set one up in a couple of days, as I'm dealing with some work related stuff right now and find myself kind of busy.
In the meantime, it would be much appreciated if you'd provide me some insight as to what you consider are the pros and cons of having an Instagram account. Just so I know what to expect.
I understand. I'm really busy with work stuff the next couple days as well. Tomorrow is press day for my paper, the day we have to finalize all files for the print issue (two-week cycle). Regarding the pros/cons, I can do my best.
One perk of Instagram is that some comic creators post insider news pertaining to comics. Twitter shares this quality, but some of the news that hits IG is exclusively revealed on IG or at least "breaks" on IG. Now, I recognize that you do not keep up with newer comics as much as other users, unless I am mistaken. But even if you do not follow comic creators to learn of news and developments, it can be nice to keep up with the creators you enjoy—especially the artists, since they will post pictures of sketches they do and the like. Because Instagram is a picture (and video)-based platform, many comic artists who don't have Twitter accounts have active IG accounts, and even for the ones who do have Twitter accounts, many of them have extra content they only present on IG.
One aspect of Instagram I consider a plus is that it does not really have an option to let someone share someone else's posts in the same vein as Twitter has retweets. I have mixed feelings about retweets. On one hand, it can sometimes lead me to seeing content that appeals to me that I would not have otherwise been able to see. On the other hand, it usually ends up leading me to seeing content that does not appeal to me that I would not have otherwise had to see. So I actually enjoy that IG allows me to have greater control over the content that I see, as my feed only has posts made by people I follow, no one else's.
Just in general, I feel that Instagram is pretty low-key in many ways. For instance, Twitter is a fast-paced platform where some consumers are encouraged to post multiple times per day. The "courtesy" of IG is usually to post only once per day max; not so much as a rule, but as a commonly understood thing because everyone understands the tone of the platform. I feel like Twitter is designed for people who have accounts to produce content, but when it comes to IG, I never feel any pressure to be a producer. I can mostly be a consumer. I barely post at all, and that's perfectly fine. I can use IG primarily as a communications platform and that's fine.
As a communications platform, Instagram is pretty solid. It is better for creating group chats than Twitter is. You can mute chats, clear conversations, etc. So you have a lot of control even in the direct messaging aspect of the app/service.
Instagram is also more private than most other social media platforms. You can set your account to be private, and people cannot see a thing under your profile. Many people who use IG more as consumers than as producers tend to set their accounts to private, but it does not especially matter what you choose or why. If you wanted to grow a following, you could set your account to public and post using hashtags. Twitter has a hashtag program, too, but I feel that IG's is a little more targeted. Many people search for a hashtag and "follow" the hashtag rather than follow an account. That way, a person can see popular posts that have that hashtag. Again, none of this paragraph may matter to you, but I wanted to cover that base anyway.
At the moment, the only con to Instagram that I can think of is that I don't know of any means there is to be low-key about not wanting to see someone's content. I know for some social media platforms, you can follow someone but select a setting that makes it so that you don't have to see that person's content in your feed. I don't think IG has that feature. So you either follow someone or you don't.
Good morning, S. I hope you managed to get through your busy week as partially unscathed as I managed to get through mine. I thought I would check in to see if you had considered IG any further since I left my pros/cons list earlier this week. Either way, take care.
I'm adding a little bit of Tim's history day by day, and I also modified what I wrote earlier trying to be more concise. The Death of the Family section is over, so I would like to have a green light about removing the incomplete banner. And also, if you have any remarks, I'm always open to getting better at doing this.
I should only ask you to include and edit summary after you do any edit to the page. In the right section, above the publish button, there's a "Edit summary" box. Fill that with a quick description of what you just edited. For example, after you remove the banner, just add "Removed incomplete banner from Death of the Family section". And do that for all future edits.
That way, the description is recorded in the article's history section, allowing everyone easy navigation through the contributions.
I finished the Batman Eternal section on the article, but I have some doubts about the level of synthesis. If you can check it out and tell me if it's ok or if I should trim some info, you would do me a big favor. Thanks in advance.
I re-read it to be coherent with the original material, and wrote everything right after. So I was probably too much detailed on it, thus my doubt about the trimming. I'll get it done as soon as possible, and thanks
It's most likely he has. I haven't read an official statement on that, but he certainly presents the symptoms and patterns that a person suffering from ptsd has. I'm no clinical psychologist, but I'm sure that in the end, if we were to psychoanalyze Batman, we'd find he's got much more than just that.
Yeah Im sure normal people dont dress up in bat costumes. He probably also has an obsession of bats too. Anyhow, I was asking this because I didnt know if we could or couldnt add PTSD to weaknesses. I already noticed he has a form of mild multiple personalities disorder in NE if u remember the story w/ the real Matches
The thing about weaknesses, is that they must be sourced and confirmed. Meaning that if you include that, you should rerefence to the comic where it was first mentioned and it has to be an in-universe diagnosis provided by any competent expert on the DCU. Since finding that is highly unlikely, I'd much rather avoid including such things as weaknesses.
Its weird. When Bats finally snaps out and remembers hes Batman and not Matches, instead of killing Wesker, Matches' murderer, he burns Scarface. When Wesker begs to him to stop and that Scarface is a real person, he replies "I know"
My understanding of that is that Bruce understands that Scarface is real enough for Wesker to feel pain. So, he burns the puppet to punish the real killer... or rather torment him psychologically. In that moment, Batman was fully and entirely sociopathic.
Truthfully, I'm not that well versed in New52 Bats. I read that sporadically because I couldn't stand the creative decisions taken and the direction it took.
From what I know, most of the biggest storylines are still canon. Like Knightfall, Hush, Long Halloween, RIP, etc. But I'm not 100% sure of that. It's all very shady in terms of continuity, especially speaking of chronology. I simply stopped caring about it at that point.
But the appearance of Elvira is official. She appears along Cain and Abel, characters from Earth-One/New Earth. When characters from two distinct publishers meet each other, the story takes part in a different universe, and this is not the case.
Someone referred me to you as the resident expert on all Batman stories, and I was hoping you could help me locate a story that I vaguely remember reading when I was about five years old. It would have been around mid-70s.
All I remember of the story is that it involved Batman willingly undergoing this procedure someone invented to break people psychologically to see if he could resist it. After he goes through the whole process, the creator of the process points to a door and says "That was just the first step. The REAL procedure is behind this door!" and Batman snaps and breaks down crying, although he may have been faking it. Anyway, does this sound at all familiar?
Hey there. Sorry for the absolutely late reply. Whoever sent you to me was right, I happen to know most about Batman around here, although as you might have noticed, I'm not active around anymore.
Anyways, about the story you're looking for, given the description you've written, I am willing to bet that it comes from The Brave and the Bold #134 published in 1977. Although the details don't match exactly with your description.
For instance, Batman didn't go willingly into the procedure. He was taken by force. Now, if he was actually fake-crying... well that's for you to find out once you reread the whole thing!!
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I am attempting to assemble a reading order for myself for Jason Todd as Robin. According to the wiki, Earth-One's Jason Todd's last appearance is supposedly Batman Vol 1 400, with the cover date of October, 1986. The wiki also says that New Earth's Jason Todd's first appearance as Batman Vol 1 408. However, there are a number of issues where NE Jason is listed as being the Jason in the issue...but they were published between #400 and #408.
I understand the other characters in these issues (such as #401-403) are also listed as New Earth characters, and I figure their being NE characters may be part of why Jason is listed as the NE version. But still, I need some help figuring out a proper reading order. Is it that #408 is the first chronological appearance because it's a flashback issue? It's not listed as flashback, but I am trying to figure this split out. I am somewhat confused here.
Could you be of help? I am trying to figure out the appearance order between the cover dates of October, 1986, and October, 1987, for Jason Todd. I am trying to have the list transition between Earth-One and New Earth as seamlessly as possible.
As a follow-up, the issues between Batman #400 and #408 include the following:
+ Batman Vol 1 401-403
+ Detective Comics Vol 1 568
+ Detective Comics Vol 1 569-574
+ New Teen Titans Vol 2 #26-31
- Tales of the Teen Titans Vol 1 #86-91 (These issues simply reprint NTTv2 #26-31)
I did say I was hoping to get advice on the reading order between October to October of 1986-1987. Batman #408 released in June. So there are still issues between June, 1987, and October, 1987. I suppose I shall list those as well, given that I would like advice on the order of those issues.
+ Batman Vol 1 408-412
+ Detective Comics Vol 1 579
+ Batman Annual Vol 1 11
If you can help me arrange these, I would be grateful. I am confused by the continuity shift.
From the get-go, you should know a couple of things:
The Batman switch from Earth-One to New Earth was not as clean as you'd expect.
Jason Todd was a character who was living on borrowed time from the beginning of Post-Crisis continuity.
Let me elaborate:
Unlike Superman's instant continuity reboot after the Crisis, the Batman books had to "make it up as they went along". That is why there are "fillers" between the end of Earth-One (Batman #400) and Batman: Year One (
#407). Basically, issues
#401, 402 and 403 don't really feel like a different continuity from the previous one.
After Year One, DC officially rebooted Jason's origin in issue
#408 and everything that comes afterwards in the Batman comic is "officially" New Earth. But the issue doesn't end there...
Over in Detective Comics, things were much more complicated. That series didn't really have a send-off like Batman #400. Detective Comics #567 is the closest thing but it's still a moot point what continuity that book takes place in. So, let's just say that New Earth officially starts in Detective Comics #568. Because that book is part of the Legends crossover, it has to be New Earth... but in terms of character and continuity is still not clear. Not with Batman nor Robin. A very generic story.
And then come the first six issues of Detective by Mike W. Barr, starting in Detective Comics #569. If you go to the Notes section of that issue, you'll see that there's an extensive note about the strange continuity of these issues. Basically, Mike Barr had no intention or editorial guidance about the continuity change and things were pretty much the same as Earth-One continuity. And that includes Jason. Unlike New Earth Jason, the boy featured in Barr's stories was still the same Earth-One boy, but he existed in the New Earth continuity because his origin had not been rebooted yet and his personality had not been reshaped.
In other words, Jason didn't really became "New Earth Jason" until at least Detective Comics #579. That book marks his first appearance in Detective after his reboot.
Now the confusion comes because his first appearance is said to be in Batman #408, right? Well, that's because in the Batman Annual #13, there are Profile Pages that include Jason Todd and it says his first appearance is Batman #408. Basically, DC officially considered that one as Jason's first New Earth appearance and all previous stories prior to that and after the Crisis were now apocryphal.
And that's what I mean when I say Jason was living on borrowed time. With the continuity switch and the changing creative teams, there are not that many stories focusing on Jason as a character. Most of the time he is just a supporting character featured in the Batman books because he has to be. The writer who most developed New Earth Jason was Max Allan Collins, who rebooted his origin, so the best Jason stories of this era are from Batman. In Detective he was just the usual sidekick and I can't tell you much about the other titles he appeared in, but I'm guessing he has even less relevance there.
Basically, if you really want to read Jason's appearances chronologically, do it separately between Batman and Detective Comics because there is no cross-continuity and overall the stories are not heavy in character development for the most part.
This is what I did (and worked well enough):
Batman Annual #11
After that there's a creative team switch and Jason's minutes are counted. Let me know if you want a detailed reading order of that...
Oof, all of that certainly seems like a complicated mess of continuity. Still, I find the advice on the reading order for those you listed helpful.
So that I can conceptualize it, would you say that I could consider the stories featuring Jason after Batman #400 / DC #566 and before Batman #408 / DC #579 as effectively using Earth-One Jason Todd? I believe I understand the stories themselves have to be in New Earth, but in terms of characterization, it is almost as if Earth-One's JT rolled over into NE for a little while before his reboot in Batman #408?
I have yet to read much, since I am assembling this list so that I can buy the issues later, but from what I read, some of the issues in this "in-between" period of Jason continuity seem to have Jason with the same upbeat personality he had in the Earth-One stories I have read of him. So if I can treat those in-between stories as E-O Jason, I think I can conceptualize that in my brain.
Regarding your offer to provide a detailed reading order for a little bit after what you have already sent me, I would welcome it.
So far, my rough outline looks for the timespan looks like thus:
Batman Vol 1 401
Detective Comics Vol 1 568
Batman Vol 1 402-403
Detective Comics Vol 1 569-574
Legends Vol 1 2-3, 5-6: Robin (Jason) helps out during the Legends event.
New Teen Titans Vol 2 26-31: Robin rejoins the NTT to help them on one last mission to rescue Nightwing and Raven from Brother Blood, and Jason thanks the team and leaves in issue #31.
Tales of the Teen Titans Vol 1 86-91: These issues reprints NTTv2 #26-31.
Batman Vol 1 408-413
Batman Annual Vol 1 11
Detective Comics Vol 1 579-582
Batman Vol 1 415-420
Batman Vol 1 422
Batman Vol 1 424-428: “A Death in the Family”
New Titans Vol 1 55: Dick Grayson learns of Jason’s death and begins mourning him. Dick feels partially responsible since he is the one who gave Jason the Robin uniform and gave Jason his blessing to be Robin. Dick goes to Bruce to discuss Jason, but the two grieving heroes end up at each other’s throats.
Secret Origins Annual Vol 2 3: The NE history of the Teen Titans is relayed, and Jason is included in it, showing that his tenure as a Titan remained intact after CoIE.
Batman Vol 1 436-439: In this story, “Batman: Year Three,” Batman is trying to deal with Jason’s death, and Nightwing helps. Jason appears in flashbacks in issues #438-439, but he is not shown at all in #436-437, although all four issues deal with him, so the story may be significant for Jason readers.
If you have any insights as to how you would rearrange some of these entries, I welcome it. Also, if there is anything that needs added, I welcome that advice as well.
So that I can conceptualize it, would you say that I could consider the stories featuring Jason after Batman #400 / DC #566 and before Batman #408 / DC #579 as effectively using Earth-One Jason Todd?
Yes. There is no harm to assume that.
As for the list, it seems you have a pretty accurate reading order. It's even more complete than mine since I don't consider Origins or Titans books in the mix. So I'd say go ahead.
Well, that is certainly helpful. Thank you very much.
On a related topic, most of Earth-One Jason's appearances are in Batman and Detective Comics. I noticed when I pulled up the pages for some of these issues that the issues' stories seem to alternate between the Batman and Detective Comics titles. I have a couple questions:
Are these stories so interlocked that they need to be read in alternating order to gain the most from them? Sometimes, when I list appearances for a certain character who appears in multiple titles at once (particularly in older comics when the stories are more episodic), I tend to group them in such ways like "World's Finest Vol 1 92-98" and "Aquaman Vol 1 35-41" —— something to that extent. I understand that the issues would be published at the same time, but it would sometimes be easier for me to binge read multiple issues of a series and then switch to another. I always try to group them like this only up to an important issue that affects the characters in such a way as to affect future stories. Otherwise, I do not see much problem in terms of maintaining a canon in one's memory banks when reading episodic stories. But for these Batman/DC issues, I do not know how episodic they are. So, as far as I know, alternating could be absolutely necessary. Could you give some insights on this topic?
Regarding the alternating story model of Batman/DC, at what point does this cycle start for the two books and when does it end? If I read the titles before Jason's appearances, I want to make sure I'm reading in the correct order.
This storytelling device was used until the very end of the Bronze Age (or Earth-One continuity) in 1986 and 90% of the time, it is mandatory that you read those stories alternating between Batman and Detective. Otherwise, it simply wouldn't make any sense.
That's probably the biggest hurdle people find when going back to that era. Readers must alternate between series and for current lazy readership, it's too much of a hassle to make sense of the reading order. Which is a shame because the creative team of the time is phenomenal. Dick Giordano and Len Wein (editors); Gerry Conway and Doug Moench (writers); Don Newton and Gene Colan (artists)!! I mean, come on!
First I'm still not sure how your templates on this wikia work differently from the ones I usually go to. Second DC has been around for more than 80 years and this wikia has been around for an eighth of that, it could help future users/visitors find printed media that's been hard to find for decades than go to a website like ReadComicOnline for there comic needs.
I was not endorsing piracy and that's why we need "Collections" subsections so we can find collected editions that have not just new but old issues to research on. Also, Tupka217, can you provide links to the promos you mentioned?
I don't have links, but it comes up in conversations and I frequently make posts about sales Comixology has. And linking to collections doesn't mean those collections are easier to find than the single issues - many are out of print.
I'm not sure what a Collections/Reprints subsection adds that a note doesn't already do.
Collections focus on the collected editions/printed media the issues are collected in whereas the difference between "Note" and "Trivia" is not clear. We may not be able to find all the out of print collections but we can see all the collections there're in now and if something comes up we'll add it.
It's a note, and it should be under notes, not trivia. To my knowledge, it's there in most pages.
The problem with being a large wiki is that you cannot just change everything. While the list of collections and reprints is not complete by a longshot, changing the ones we have now doesn't actually alter that - it just creates more work with limited if any benefits.
Still can't see the difference. What besides collections is put under Note? I may not know all what the new streaming service provides but it could help with the list of collections and reprints with an occasional binge. Plus it would help if pages don't appear outside subcategories (way too many unnecessary repeats) and we have naviboxes
Funnily enough, I put notes in the Notes section. I personally don’t see the point of listing what trades the issue was collected in, even with a link. If I want to find an issue I want to read I buy the issue. I’ll usually end up buying the whole run as well, so I’ll do a minimal amount of research on the internet to suss out my options.
I prefer to add actual notes to Notes like editorial errors, such as those early issues where Alan Grant calls Harry Matthews “Harry Andrews” or how he changes the original spelling of Ran Va Daath. Pointing out when dead Lanterns mysteriously show up again or the constant inconsistencies with Lobo’s duribilty and healing qualities are also things I would want to read about in Notes, so that’s what I add.
Trivia is for trivia. Recording interesting facts about characters, pointing out homages/pastiches, and explaining inside gags.
I’ve just bought some more trades and wanted to finally add Lnightfall as well, but I’m confused as the two omnibuses (Vol 2 and 3) I was looking at dont seem to have an obvious Vol 1. It’s probably out of production but even on eBay and another national online store I can’t discern which is the correct Vol 1 omnibus as the issues included seem to overlap. I’m hoping the information is just wrong but I don’t want to risk buying two trades only to find out the first just overlaps.
Check out fishpond.co.nz and search “knightfall omnibus” and it comes up with only three options, but I would like your opinion if the first volume is indeed before the second two.
I'm baffled as well. The Vol 1 Omnibus that shows up in fishpond apparently collects every book in Knightfall and all Prodigal as well. What I find strange is that, to my knowledge, DC has not published such omnibus. All collected editions of that storyline have always been in 3 volumes.
Based on that, the results from fishpond for Vols 2 & 3 match those of the new edition collection and Vol 1 seems to be all 3 volumes of the Omnibus publication.
I mean, if I were you, I'd go for the digitalversioninstead; but since I know you like your comics on papyrus scrolls, I'd go for the first volume listed since it claims it has it all. I'd also double check their refund policy...