Perhaps move it to Soviet Communist Party of something, just to make more abundantly clear these are the soviets? --Tupka217 09:56, September 30, 2015 (UTC)
- That wouldn't be true to comicbook history or real history either. Blackhawk contended against the Soviets PLUS the Maoists PLUS the Norks PLUS their creepy little front groups all over the world. Just like not all comicbook Nazis were German nationals and didn't only live in the 1930s and 1940s. Stoop Davy Dave (talk) 10:20, September 30, 2015 (UTC)
- Why does the Infobox show only "Earth-Two; Earth-One" when on the Edit page it lists "Earth-Two; Earth-One; New Earth; Earth-S; Quality Universe" ?? Stoop Davy Dave (talk) 10:34, September 30, 2015 (UTC)
- It's a limitation in the Organization template, IIRC. It only lists two options. --Tupka217 10:46, September 30, 2015 (UTC)
Non-existant subject[]
Why is there an article for the Communist Party when there is no Communist Party to speak of? The overview even acknowleadges this, but then incorrectly defines "The Communists" as a "cooperative network committed to the imposition of centralized planning and dictatorial control over all the nations of the world." This "cooperative network" is fantasy in the real world, and if it does exist in the DC universe, it should be properly referenced.
Despite how the overview seems to acknowledge the non-existance of a Communist Party, the history section proceeds to talk about it, basically lumping together the actions of many independent organization. Not to mention that there are a few snippets that break the neutral point of view mantra.
There should be an article for the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the Chinese Communist Party, and any other relevant organizations with a communist ideology. But as it stands right now, this article is about a non-existant subject and frankly should be deleted. Danter7 (talk) 21:16, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
- The characters in the stories believe it exists, and act accordingly. Ditto for the captions. It's real enough for them, so it's real enough for us, or should be. Huck Foley (talk) 23:40, 27 July 2021 (UTC)
Well I see two scenarios:
1. A conspiratory entity of this kind was explicitly confirmed in-universe, if so, this article urgently needs references and I must continue to support its deletion until said references are provided.
2. A conspiratory entity of this kind was implied in the comics but never explicitly confirmed in-universe, in which case I still think the article should be deleted, as articles should address concrete subjects.
If the subject of an article is not concret, how could we, the editors, put references in them so that the readers can confirm their information? Danter7 (talk) 00:51, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- In real-world history, the numerous national Communist parties are modeled after and inspired by the original Russian Communist Party. For a long time, many of those Communist Parties were controlled or strongly influenced by the original Russian Communist Party, and they remained closely allied, both economically and militarily, for decades. The stories in these comics are set during those decades. The Communists share a common ideology, and their literature makes a big deal about how "international" their "movement" is. It's in their national anthem, even, or it used to be. And they have a common enemy, the decadent democracies of the so-called Free World. To that extent, they all ARE part of the same conspiratory entity.
- But this isn't the real world, this is Cold War era anti-Communist propaganda, straight up. So it must be dealt with on its own terms. The conspiratory entity here, called Communist Party, is not explicitly confirmed in-universe, in every single story where the villains are Communists, nor need they be. In fact the opposite condition is evident: In many many Golden Age and Silver Age stories, and especially in Blackhawk but probably everywhere, the specific nationality of the Communist villains is seldom identified. Not never, but seldom. They might be Bulgarian or East German or North Korean or Chinese now and then, but mostly all we're told about them is that they are Communists. The White ones are probably Russian and the Asian ones are probably Chinese, but we the readers are almost never told.
- So that means the 2nd of your two scenarios is the case here: The Communist Party is that conspiratory entity, and is not just implied but often explicitly identified as such. Some of the Communist villains are true believers in the international ideals espoused by the Party, while others are just gangsters hiding their base motives behind lofty verbiage. It does not matter what they inwardly believe; they all do the same things.
- So let's discuss Nazis. If your thesis is: >>There should be an article for the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the Chinese Communist Party, and any other relevant organizations with a communist ideology.<< Are you not also calling for an article apiece for the American Nazi Party, the original Nazi party, the successor underground Nazi Parties, plus the Aryanian Nazi Party, the Jarmanian Nazi Party, the Kampflandian Nazi Party, or the twenty-other-fake-nationalities Nazi Parties? No. Because that would be massively redundant. They're Nazis, we know what to expect from them whenever they show up. Well, the comic-book Communists fill exactly the same role, in the same way. If they all talk alike, and all act alike, and wear the same red stars and wave the same hammers and sickles, then that tells us that they are all on the same team. Huck Foley (talk) 01:42, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Well, it seems that we are in fundamental disagreement here, but I thank you for the extended and well written response, because now, I understand your point of view much better. Why do I believe that we are in fundamental disagreement here? Because as odd as it may appear to you, I also disagree with the resolution given in your example: To me, if the American Nazi Party or Jarmanian or whatever are depicted as antagonists in a story, I would either create a page for said party or leave the appearance with no link, and I would certainly oppose linking to a generic Nazi Party or to the German Nazi Party. I would not find said pages redundant, no matter how similar said entities are, because to me, the fundamental fact is that they are two different organizations.
But I understand a lot better now why this page exist, and as such, I will retire my request for deletion. I still think that articles for the Soviet and Chinese party should be created, I'll probably get around to it in this uh.. decade. And I also think this article should be renamed to Communists, and its ties to nondescript communists from Cold War propaganda should be more explicit. Danter7 (talk) 02:56, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- For the purpose of simple convenience, Nazis, communists, fascists, etc. should be restricted to just one page. Otherwise, it would make the whole process of identifying the innumerable appearances of myriad different politically extreme organizations and groups, whether directly connected or merely ideologically associated, incredibly cumbersome and contribute little for indexing purposes. If anyone clicks on the link for "Appearances of Communist Party," they should be able to bring up a page linking to every article of media catalogued in this wiki where communist organizations are depicted. In addition, it is somewhat misleading to say that this page is solely restricted to the 50s-era Cold War propaganda comics that are Huck Foley's specialty. Communist organizations, governments, and parties, albeit in a significantly reduced and less explicitly nefarious way, continue to be depicted in DC comics media. Kerfuffles2 (talk) 05:37, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
Accuracy should not be the victim of convenience. Should we get rid of the Republican Party and the Democratic Party articles and condense them into Liberal Party now?
The only reason I think this page should not be deleted is because it can be reproposed to exclusively cataloge nondescript communists that play major roles in the stories they appear. Can't have two additional articles for two of the largest and most prominent political parties in both the real world and DC? Danter7 (talk) 06:46, 28 July 2021 (UTC)
- I admit that if I had created these pages for Nazis, communists, and fascists, that my instinct would be to name them more generically to serve the purposes of convenience. However, the current page names are what we have, and I appreciate how they've been used for indexing purposes regardless of accuracy. A website like DC Database has more need of a page to describe "Nazis" and "Communists" to index the appearances of random Nazi and communist groups and individuals than separate pages for every last Nazi or communist group or individual ever depicted in DC media. For groups with particular significance like Axis Amerika or the People's Heroes, which have Nazi and communist affiliations, respectively, they already have their own pages, and the pages for the comics in which they appear don't directly link to this one (or shouldn't, unless used to index other Nazis or communists who are nondescript and appear alongside them). The big problem with having separate pages for the CPSU and CCP is simply that a large number, though not all, of appearances by communist agents are heavily implied to be for either of these specific groups, but not explicitly stated to be, so the line blurs. This was more prominent in 1950s Blackhawk comics and the such, where the specific national loyalty of any given bunch of communist villains was sometimes nebulous, probably because the writers felt it didn't matter. But it even appears in later-published issues. For example, in Action Comics #446, a national leader who is only identified as "Comrade Leader" (but is obviously intended to be Leonid Brezhnev by how he's drawn) orders agents in GBS to spy on Lois Lane's attempt to discover how Clark Kent communicates with Superman when an emergency happens. Then in Action Comics #449, the espionage agent introduced in #446, named SU-6, attempts to replace the GBS corporate hierarchy with android duplicates to take over the American media. Would these be properly indexed under the CPSU or the nondescript communists? They're technically never even said explicitly to be Soviets or communists, but they're obviously intended to be Soviets by implication. Simply linking them to "Communist Party" is much easier, and believe me, when push comes to shove here, convenience is almost always taken over technical accuracy or even consistency. For instance, see how all pages for Darkseid which used to be named "Uxas" (since Uxas is Darkseid's real name) are now just called "Darkseid" since it helps the SEO. Kerfuffles2 (talk) 07:48, 28 July 2021 (UTC)