According to "Countdown - Search for Ray Palmer: Red Son" (which has been pushed back to Dec 12th 2007) the Earth-30 Superman is AFTER Stalin, which is fundamentally different from Red Son who was raised by his reality's Stalin as his successor. Thus the Red Son and the Earth-30 Supermen are two seperate beings.
Most of these 52 multiverse characters will be shown to be fundamentally differ from their source storylines as the same way that the Earth-22 Superman does not have a source Earth anymore which was destroyed by the war that the true Kingdom Come Superman was able to prevent, and like the Vampire Batman of the original Red Rain storyline was able to keep his sanity after being converted into a vampire and continues the protection of humanity where as the Earth-43 Batman is shown directly not to have that same attitude and is openly killing humans directly after his conversion, even kiling and converting his own Robin as shown in "Search for Ray Palmer: Red Rain"
But I will wait to next week for "Search for Ray Palmer: Red Son" is released. Kal_l_fan 23:23 7 December 2007
- Thing is that even though they may differ from their original stories, it could officially be the same people, as they may just have gone through some kind of retcon(s). The Clever Guy (Talk • Contribs • E-Mail) 09:42, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
- Yeah but they are complete retcons on the fundamental basis which completely alters the characters from what was, making them into two similar -- but completely seperate -- characters. Again Red Son was raised by Stalin, whereas if the story is maintained the Earth-30 Superman does not comes to Russia until after Stalin is dead which fundamentally changes the character. But again I will wait for the actual "Search for Ray Palmer: Red Son" to be released before any further pursuit on this.
- Kal_l_fan 04:31 8 December 2007
Too much reverse editing going on here
There's way too much reverse editing going on with this page. I've been asked to lock it down, but I don't think that's really necessary. I have faith in our fellow editors. Skimming through the history, it looks like most of the changes are organizational in nature. Currently, I think the page looks much more organized than it has in the past. However, we cannot have multiple editors reversing another's edits just for the heck of it. It's a disservice to readers visiting the site, and quite simply, its poor database management. If there is a dispute concerning factual material, it should be addressed either here, on the interested parties' talk pages or (preferably) in the forums where other editors can contribute to the discussion with greater accessibility. Hopefully whatever dispute exists between the editors can be resolved civilly. If the reverse editing continues without any communication, then I'll have to lock the page down for a bit until a decision can be made. --Brian Kurtz 06:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- How is the layout now? I updated the disambig template to handle images and glorify the main version of the character, but I didn't know if you guys wanted to use it here. It's inspired by your pages, actually, since you guys usually have a header image of some sort, and seem to enjoy putting in descriptions at the top of disambigs.
- I didn't change any facts, or even any words, just shifted things around a bit. I know it'd be nice to fit the Superman logo in there too. Any ideas where it could go in the current layout? In the header bar? Somewhere in the text? Below the main image of Superman?
- I don't have a problem with reversions, but I do like to hear reasons, like Brian's "The layout looks funny to me".
I'm transferring all of the back-and-forth that was on my talk to here. The Paradox 07:38, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
your edits are too disorganized. I know I have been away for some time -- personally becuase of this SAME situation. But I ask that you stop this before we start getting into a ping pong match Kal_l_fan
- My edits are factual and logical. Your's contains major errors and mixes classifications of Superman, such as including the evil Superboy-Prime in the first section. The Paradox 05:24, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- I'm sorry but your edits are NOT factual as SuperMAN Prime is the same EXACT character as is son of Jor-El and Lara of the Earth-Prime dimension and is a MAJOR version of the character.
- And your classifications mixes the 52 multiverse with pre-crisis characters which are clearly seperate as well as minor versions.
- "Major" should be determined by something other than one's opinion of the villain de jour. By that standard, the Cyborg Superman ranks at least as high as Superboy-Prime. (I refer to him as such, BTW, to avoid confusion with the DC One Million version.) Your "MAJOR" version hasn't even carried a title, much less dozens of them over the course of 70 years. The Paradox 05:51, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Personal opinion aside Superman Prime is the same character Kal-EL and has the same background. The Earth Prime version is the same as the Earth-Two Kal-L is to the current main incarnation.
- You have mixed pre-crisis characters with the 52 multiversion and intergrated minor versions making a mess of the page.
- They don't have the same background - Prime's Rao ungulfed his Krypton and he's still a teenager, the Golden Age was from race of superbeings, Earth-One had a superhero identity as an eight year old and a veritible city of fellow survivors, and Post-Crisis wasn't "born" until he hit Kansas. Multiversal counterparts are just that, counterparts. What marks the four "major" ones isn't the spelling of their name (Earth-2 would be there otherwise) or their Earthly upbringing, but the fact that they've been the "main" Superman as published by DC Comics. (Although All-Star is debatable on that one.) None of the others have that. The Paradox 06:19, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- They DO have the same background --
- born on Krypton,
- son of Jor-El / L and Lara
- sent to Earth to avoid the destruction of their source planet
- have developed superhuman powers and abilities
- and major interest and researched versions of the character.
- >"What marks the four "major" ones isn't the spelling of their name (Earth-2 would be there otherwise) or their Earthly upbringing, but the fact that they've been the "main" Superman as published by DC Comics".
- No, the Earth-Two Superman was NEVER the main Superman. As stated by DC REPEATEDLY, Kal-L is a retcon of the true Golden Age Superman and NOT the same character. He was ALWAYS written against the Silver Age Superman and never been the featured star character in ANY book as the SPECIFIC Earth-Two Superman, not even in the Mr and Mrs Superman stories which were in the Superman Family series.
- What marks the "main" Superman is the fact that they are Kal-El, regardless of their personal development (good or bad) and Kel-El Prime IS a major Superman who when most look up on these pages should not be scrolling around to find. The 52 multiverse versions should not be mixed in with other dimension versions.
- What you have made of this page is a mess.
- Kal_l_fan 11 October 2008
You guys clearly both have the same goals, and we all want this page to be the best it can be. Maybe instead of arguing amongst ourselves, we could work together and survey the rest of the community to solve this problem officially, instead of trying to find the answer through another futile post war (which nobody wants). Maybe one of you could post a poll onto the forums? And that would add group consensus to what's otherwise an argument based on differing personal opinions. (I'd do it myself, but I don't really understand the problem.)
- Yeah. What he said. --Brian Kurtz 17:52, 11 October 2008 (UTC)
- Simple question -- how is adding oneshot versions like Dead Earths series which most do not look nor consider relevant on thr main disambig making the disambig page better? Other than fans of that particular cross over series -- who already know that info -- I do not see that as adding value anymore than me adding all of the external one shot so called "imaginary" versions of the character.
- And again mixing all the precrisis versions with the 52 multiverse versions under the all inclusive heading of alternate universe when the 52 multiverse is specifically designed to be fundamentally different from the precrisis realities makes no sense at all to me.
- As to the poll on the DCCP forums, I do not even see the links for the DC forums anymore. And there was not that amount of people who used the forum in the first place other than the admins as far as I remember.
- Kal_l_fan 2008 October 12 02:07 (UTC)
The LotDE characters are entirely mine, I've been working on that crossover and I put those characters on this page. The Paradox has only accommodated them. I am also under the belief that Alternate Universe should just be one big heading on this page, although maybe there could be classifications in between. And yes, it is mostly admins on the editing forums, but I'm not an admin and I hang out there all the time. Actually, the admins are sort of the people with the most revered opinions as far as polling goes, so I would recommend moving this there anyway. A link to the forums can be found under the Community tab on the left side of the page.
- community tab
- leads to
- "Alternatively, you can visit the Forums
- to talk to current members and see why
- they are so excited about our project!
- leads to
- dead page.
- There is no direct access html link to the DC forums from the pages I know.
- >I am also under the belief that Alternate Universe should just be one big heading on this page, although maybe there could be classifications in between.
That was what was basically before with the 52 first as that is the current reality of the alternate versions with the precrisis following as they are erased unless if they are continuing such as Superboy/Man Prime and are a featured character. I am fundamentally opposed to just lumping them all together in this way.
- Kal_l_fan 2008 October 12 04:14 (UTC)
- Here. Actually, yes the community portal does contain a dead link, but the Community Tab still has the proper link. Just hover over the bar for a second and it'll show up. I really don't understand this argument at all, and I have no idea what my opinion on it is.
i recall reading a wizard magazine that portrayed Superman (either golden age or early silver age) having an ability that he was capable of creating a mini verison of himself out of nowhere. i can't recall the issuse but i know it exist and it didn't have anything to do with Mr. Myx character. --Chezpizza1 21:35, 19 March 2009 (UTC)
I think it always looks weird when the Header isn't at the Head of the article, and I appreciate that it looks nice to have the image in the middle, but I think it's better to have the main text right there in the article, and have the juxtaposition less... awkward. Anybody mind if I change it back?
The Superman (Clark Kent) article says that the New Earth version of Superman first appeared in Action Comics # 1, but the Superman who appears in that comic is the Golden Age/Earth-Two version, Kal-L. The present day Superman first appeared in John Byrne's "Man of Steel #1", not AC #1. Shouldn't that be changed? Superman01 17:53, March 1, 2011 (UTC)
- It's the historical perspective on the character, and Superman has been around since the thirties, not just since the eighties, so it would be misleading to put that in the article. By extension, we would also probably have to say that his first appearance would then technically be in Superman: Secret Origin #1. It makes more sense to say that this is the DCU's main version of Superman, and Superman first appeared as a character in Action Comics #1.
Is it okay to remove the characters Steel, Super Boy (Connors), Eradicator and Cyborg Superman out of the Multiverse section? I mean they are native of New Earth and people who taken Sup's name.--Drgyen 02:28, June 28, 2011 (UTC)
- Works to me. So...shall we start editing to make the changes?--Drgyen 03:44, June 30, 2011 (UTC)
Superman II and III
Maybe we can split off Supes' II and III.
- Jorel Kent of Earth-2020
- Larry Kent of Earth-36
- Superman Secundus of DC One Million
- Kon-El of Batman in Bethlehem
- Superman II of Earth-399
- Kalel Kent of Earth-2020
- Superman III of Earth-36
- Superman III of Earth-399
- Maybe a Superman III in DC One Million too?
- If we haven't done this already, I say "sure", so long as there are links somewhere on the Superman page to those two disambigs, whether in a separate section or related links. - Hatebunny (talk) 15:10, July 12, 2014 (UTC)
Tiny Toons version
w:c:TinyToons:File:TinToonVac-05.jpg shows a shot of Superman in the film Tiny Toon Adventures: How I Spent My Vacation. Since TTA is a Warner Brothers' production and WB produces many DC films, I am wondering if this might qualify their incarnation of Superman for the DC wiki. talk2ty 03:24, December 25, 2014 (UTC)
- Batman also appeared in one episode ("Hollywood Plucky"). However, I'm inclined to say no. They were just cameos, not guest appearances to the degree of Brady Kids WW or Green Loontern. Dozens of series have that - just think of MAD. That's DC too. --Tupka217 08:48, December 25, 2014 (UTC)
I noted that there is some need of updated info on the New 52 Multiverse section of this page. I'll do it myself if I could, but I just wanted to point some things out.
- Earth 4: Wasn't Captain Allen the "Quamtum Superman"? I know he's on the pre-Flashpoint Multiverse section, but should he be on the New 52 section?
- Earth 5: The pre-Flashpoint Earth-5 Captain Marvel is considered that universe's Superman, should Earth 5's Captain Marvel too?
- Earth 6: Wonder Woman has her Just Imagine's counterpart on her own New 52 disambig, just pointing out.
- Earth 9: The Atom or Superman?
- Earth 10: Just Overman's image, that's all.
- Earth 22: Should he be there?
- Earth 26: Captain Carrot is a Superman analog, isn't he?
- Earth 33: Superboy-Prime was mentioned, is that enough?
- Earth 38: Should he be there too?
- Earth 42: He's dead, but based on what "Empty Hand" said maybe he'll return.
- Earth 43: He's definitely missing.
- Earth 45: Wasn't Superdoom previously a Superman? Maybe with this pic:https://imgur.com/GX98Srg
- Earth 50: Justice Lord Superman's page still doesn't exist, but I'm planning on creating it soon.
- not all disarm bigs have been updated. See the guidebook's talk page for a breakdown by disarm big. Please don't make Earth 50 pages. --Tupka217 01:16, March 5, 2015 (UTC)
- I can't speak for the others, but I am vehemently against using Earths 12 and 50 until we've got some explicit info that they're completely separate from the DCAU. --Tupka217 01:24, March 5, 2015 (UTC)
- One of the key things about a disambig is that it is suppose to make things less ambiguous. The superman page isn't merely a list of superman analogues, it's meant to prevent confusion between "superman A" and "superman B" - Captain Marvel and Superman are not easily confused. Captain Atom and Superman are not easily confused. - Hatebunny (talk) 02:06, March 5, 2015 (UTC)
- Also worth considering are Earth 8's Hyperius (appearing as a Superman/Hyperion analogue in Final Crisis and known to exist on Earth 8 in this Multiverse), Earth 21's Superman (the DC website's Multiverse Map confirms Superman is on this Earth, and the DC Entertainment Essential Graphic Novels and Chronology 2015 confirms this as the New Frontier universe, making that the version of Superman here), Earth 44's Gold Superman, Earth 47's Sunshine Superman, and the Superman of Earth 1.--Noheartxanother (talk) 08:15, May 15, 2015 (UTC)
Article for Prime Earth Superman
With the beginning of Convergence and the end of The New 52, the need of an article for Prime Earth Superman is bigger than ever. Batman and Wonder Woman already have their pages ready. What's the progress on Superman's page? Leader Vladimir (talk) 04:51, April 9, 2015 (UTC)
The Multiverse section of this page is severely disorganized, versions of Superman from across multiple incarnations of the Multiverse often grouped together in random positions, Earth-One variants on the character beginning the page before switching over to New 52 incarnations, and then back to pre-Crisis incarnations later, 52 Multiverse incarnations like L'il Superman mixed in with Elseworlds, all brought together as an unwieldy whole. The Wonder Woman pages' setup of New 52 Multiverse, 52 Multiverse and original Multiverse subsections would go a long way in making this page more palatable.--Noheartxanother (talk) 08:15, May 15, 2015 (UTC)
- I made that WW disambig as a mockup for a proposed new system, because I found the same issue with the big ones - they're unwieldy and unnavigable. --Tupka217 08:29, May 15, 2015 (UTC)
Fleischer Superman Image
Think we should make a page for the Arkhamverse version of Superman? After all, there are several bits that do mention him, like a thug saying there's a freak in a cape in Metropolis who's even harder to kill than Batman, another saying the only thing missing is the freak from Metropolis to fly into Gotham, the red blur on the Metropolis travel advertisement, and a firefighter joking that since Bruce Wayne's Batman, Superman's probably either a janitor or journalist. RyuHane (talk) 05:06, September 6, 2016 (UTC)
Prime is out, New is in
The left infobox should be updated to 1985 - 2011, 2016 - Present while the right infobox should be updated to 2011 - 2016 since Prime Earth Superman is dead and has been replaced by New Earth Superman. —Scott (message me) 17:29, September 11, 2016 (UTC)
DC Extended Universe
Since we've got Dawn of Justice, Suicide Squad, and now Justice League (and several others coming), I think we should start changing "Other media" to go directly to DC Extended Universe. -- Anythingspossibleforapossible (talk) 11:44, January 12, 2017 (UTC)
Would anybody hate me if I divided the multiverse lump into small subsections like the Blue Beetle disambig? Pre-Crisis, Post-Crisis, New 52, Elseworlds, Possible Futures, etc etc. --- Haroldrocks talk 06:13, January 18, 2017 (UTC)
I think Kong Kenan, Denny Swan and Lana Lang (Superwoman) should be included in the Successors category and not in the Multiverse category just because they are all from Prime Earth, which is the mainstream Earth now. Even though the current Superman is not from Prime Earth but from New Earth, he lives in the former now so they are all considered his successors (usurpers in case of Swan). Moreover, Lex Luthor (Superman) of Prime Earth is in the Successors category, so why not the rest of them?--TG90 15:46, 08 February 2017 (UTC)
Merger of Supermen
Now that the history of both the New Earth and Prime Earth versions have "fused", what will we do about their pages? Should they be merged or something? I noticed that Damian Wayne only has a Prime Earth page and doesn't has a New Earth page because his story is mainly intact, so I wonder, what will happen to the Superman (Clark Kent) page now that his story is merged with the New 52's version? Should it recieve the Damian Wayne treatment?--Heart of Steel (talk) 19:17, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
- Damian Wayne is pretty much one character throughout all his appearances. Superman was two distinct characters. --Tupka217 19:33, April 7, 2017 (UTC)
Post Reborn Superman
There's probably already a discussion about this somewhere but Dan Jurgens said the fused Superman is technically a new character and this kinda makes sense as his new fused history(as briefly seen in Action 977 and 978) is different from both New Earth and Prime Earth's history. Shouldn't there be a new page for this new Reborn Superman like there was for ginger Wally? Captain097 (talk) 13:44, April 27, 2017 (UTC)
- If that's the case, this is a better solution than a merge, or continuing one of the pages. What do we call it, though? --Tupka217 13:55, April 27, 2017 (UTC)
- I think it's better to wait for a bit before creating a second -third, if you count Post-Flashpoint Superman- page for what is technically Post-Crisis Superman with the second half of his history altered. Maybe after Rebirth is done he'll be different again (I'll spare you my opinion of the 1985 reboot and why I think it was a bad idea and/or badly-executed and the origin of the current mess, but God, this is a nightmare to explain to people who don't read comic-books). MektonZ (talk) 18:16, April 27, 2017 (UTC)
- It seems like a lot of character's backstories are being affected by Rebirth, not just Superman (though he is the most extreme case, and so far the biggest cause of change in most of the other characters), so I'd argue we might not be using Prime Earth for much longer anyway. Hell, considering now that technically post-Reborn, the Justice League was founded 15 years ago, not the five from before, then you could argue it's already different enough to justify it being a new 'Earth'. Anyways, it might be best to just wait a bit.--Nerdman3000 (talk) 23:30, April 27, 2017 (UTC)
- TBH, I'm feeling more and more that the current Superman should be either Superman (Clark Kent) or, as noted above, Kal-El II (Prime Earth) (as much as I hate that). Using the New Earth page seems counterproductive, because it was never that version - it was a time duplicate from Convergence. That then got merged. Into one, post-Rebirth, Prime Earth Superman. Lois and Lois were similarly merged, and Jon was retconned as always having been a PE character. He was never NE anyway. --Tupka217 15:23, September 19, 2017 (UTC)
- We don't what "Lois Lane II (New Earth)"... that'd be dumb. I say move it all to Superman (Clark Kent). Even if the current Supes is "a new version", it has become the official Prime Earth version, in spite of his sketchy origin. New 52 Supes might be retconned out of existence, but that doesn't mean we can't use that page to expand the "new" Prime Earth character there. Same goes for Lois and all other Superman characters that were retconned. At least, until DC pulls something else out of their a-s to explain things accurately. - S.S. (talk) 15:45, September 19, 2017 (UTC)
- If I understand correctly from what I read here, then using a Rebirth/Convergence notice-template to indicate a continuity change on the main New Earth superman's page is enough to distinguish his continuity from the previous continuity. If it's any more complicated than a few continuity changes (like, say, that he is a clone or a copy who could potentially meet the original New Earth superman), then Tupka's Kal-El II suggestion is fair. If I understand correctly that he was merged with the Prime Earth superman (only if it's an official, canon merge, mind you), then I think it makes the most sense to stop tagging New Earth guy and use PE superman for post-rebirth appearances. - Hatebunny (talk) 16:43, September 19, 2017 (UTC)
- This thing hurts my brain, but I want to contribute. I think we should funnel everything into plain old Superman (Clark Kent) like Tupka suggested. We should look at Reborn as it is - an intentional retcon - and just acknowledge stuff gets messy around that storyline. But, as of Reborn, there's always been one Superman, just some of his past didn't happen like we remember it. --- Haroldrocks talk 21:15, September 19, 2017 (UTC)
- Wrapping this up - it looks like we're pretty much solid on using Superman (Clark Kent)? --Tupka217 16:09, September 29, 2017 (UTC)
- Wow, reading off Comixology and switching between issues just isn't as good for understanding complex storylines as having two paper issues in front of you. The sections of Lois and Clark could do with a reread; most of it is just copied from one version with limited changes.
- For the sake of sanity, everything after May, 2017 becomes Prime Earth. That's when the merge took place; I'm not going to check the publishing day on Justice League etc. to see if it was before or after the merge. --Tupka217 12:27, October 25, 2017 (UTC)
Why is the page protected?
- High-profile pages such as this one usually get protected for a number of reasons. Mostly, to prevent vandalism and multiple edits which can lead to edit conflicts. - S.S. (talk) 00:02, August 28, 2018 (UTC)