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Which is canon

For the purposes of the wiki, we will retain info and (if available) character histories of both versions. Do not remove material. Where there is conflict, divide it into sections and one of the sections should get a continuity template explaining which is canon, if that is applicable. Add sources below. --Tupka217 (talk) 19:31, 16 March 2021 (UTC)


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I think Patty Jenkins' statement (with source) mentioned on the main Justice League page is worth including. Her statement obviously doesn't outrank either director or DC, but, still, worthwhile commentary.

Also, I was going to make a PSA about Out-of-Universe content when writing History sections, but I feel like that rule should be defined as well, especially in regards to something called "Zack Snyder's Justice League". Is that fine for a section header? Obviously we should avoid statements like "In the Snyder Cut / In Whedon's version of Justice League / etc." --Haroldrocks (talk) 20:06, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

I was thinking two OOU section headers and a continuity notice like {{WWNew52}} or {{Convergence}} on the top/non-canon one. {{SnyderCut}} --Tupka217 (talk) 20:32, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
Snyder said a week ago that the original Justice League by Joss Whedon is still canon for WB [1] and said last year it will be separate from the main DC film continuity [2]. MatteJohnny (talk) 21:06, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
The latter just says they're alternate versions, not which one is "canon". --Tupka217 (talk) 21:17, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
Yeah I apologize. I put the wrong source there. In this piece by IGN last year, Snyder does say his cut is not in continuity with the DC cinematic universe [3]. MatteJohnny (talk) 22:51, 18 March 2021 (UTC)
I think Matte Johnny has a point here. Clearly this can't be the DC Extended Universe, because everything is clearly to different. It has to be an alternate continuity. I think that the characters should be called Kal-El (Zack Snyder's Justice League) and so forth. It's clearly it's own universe. Just like the Superman II director's cut.---Noah Tall (talk) 08:46, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
While I do agree that this is the noncanon film, I think it's in the best interest of the wiki to keep them together. That includes the Knightmare Timeline. Simplicity's sake, less pages, and most people will still be looking for "DC Extended Universe." That being said, I don't think major differences should be reflected in info boxes, for example, Calvin Swanwick shouldn't list his race as Martian and Steppenwolf's shouldn't list him as deceased.--MysteryScooby (talk) 02:05, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
That's the plan. The only point of discussion is which one would be "canon", and it appears the cinematic release. Separate pages is terrible for SEO, especially since 95% is still the same. That is not up for debate. --Tupka217 (talk) 10:58, 19 March 2021 (UTC)
My biggest issue with having it be the same thing is Martian Manhunter. Clearly in the Snyderverse he's Calvin Swanwick whether he is in the DC Extended Universe or not. This is a major issue to me, just due to the fact that he's such a major DC character. I think it deserves it's own page. If not, there should at least be a section in the article that shows him pictured as Martian Manhunter, not to mention his picture on the disambiguation page. (if there already is, well that's good, I haven't checked yet...I will do that)----Noah Tall (talk) 17:04, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
They are the same people, so it doesn't make sense. Also he's never called J'onn J'onzz. Everyone doesn't need a separate page because of some differences. His role in the Snyder Cut can easily be noted in a separate section. MatteJohnny (talk) 17:08, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
"there should at least be a section in the article that shows him pictured as Martian Manhunter". There should be sections in the article recounting his history in MoS and BvS, and only then one for ZSJL. Noone is stopping you. --Tupka217 (talk) 17:24, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
I am very much aware that no on would stop me, I simply would rather make a case for a completely different page. We do have pages like Kal-El (Brainiac Attacks) as its' own page rather than Kal-El (DCAU) having a separate article for it in the same page. I don't see this as any different.--Noah Tall (talk) 18:02, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
The film Brainiac Attacks was always intended to be in its own continuity unlike Snyder Cut. MatteJohnny (talk) 18:07, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
That's beside the point, the fact is it's not in the same continuity. Also, many elements were added after the Snyder Cut was greenlit that wasn't there from the get go.--Noah Tall (talk) 18:22, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Only a few, Martian Manhunter is seemingly among them as insiders deny Snyder's claim he always had a plan to include him. But I support your idea in creating a separate continuity for Snyder Cut. MatteJohnny (talk) 18:25, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Sounds good to me.--Noah Tall (talk) 18:28, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
I also thought I'd mention, people have been calling it the Snyderverse that I've seen on Facebook. I think that's a good name but what do you think? (assuming we go that route)--Noah Tall (talk) 18:31, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Fine with me. If it doesn't work we can always use Zack Snyder's Justice League as an alternative. MatteJohnny (talk) 19:30, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Green Lanterns in the movie

I've found no first-hand evidence for the identity of the two Green Lanterns in the movie. Snyder or the film never stated the Lantern in the "history lesson" where Earth's defenders fight Steppenwolf (in Whedon version) or Darkseid (in Snyder version) is Yalan Gur, despite some similarities in appearance. Many sites and fans however still believe him to be so, though there are differences in appearance too. The Lantern in the Knightmare visions of Cyborg while reviving Superman, does look like Kilowog, but that's not clear either.

Snyder only seems to engage people on Vero, but I currently don't have an account. Does this website or someone else have one so they might ask him please? MatteJohnny (talk) 13:49, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

No need to ask Snyder (just yet). I have a distinct memory somewhere that there was some character design sketch that called him Gur that came out years ago or maybe my mind's a siv. We had previously called it "Green Lantern of Sector 2814 (DC Extended Universe)". As for the other Lantern, there was one? I really need to rewatch the Knightmare scenes because those failed to impress me. --Tupka217 (talk) 13:55, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
I actually did find posts showing WB Movies All Access saying it is Yalan Gur, also a recent DC blog post talking about Easter Eggs, The blog post itself however is not sure of who the Lantern in Cyborg's Knightmare scenes is. Anyway these two taken thogether are I guess good enough to identify Yalan Gur at least. MatteJohnny (talk) 14:17, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
Ah, so it's in Cyborg's scene. That was the only one worth listening to so I didn't really watch for corpses. --Tupka217 (talk) 17:16, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes, that's true. The concept art along with an official description from the WB Movies All Access app confirmed back in 2018 that Yalan Gur was the Lantern in the history lesson. Some sources claim that the second Lantern from the Knightmare was Kilowog, but that remains unconfirmed as far as I know. --The Gotham Knight (talk) 22:04, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Jerad Marantz (concept-artist) has confirmed that this is indeed Kilowog (Instagram post). - Nalka123 (talk) 22:31, 18 April 2021 (UTC)

Martian Manhunter

While I understand not wanting to identify the Green Lantern from the Knightmare Timeline just yet, or having Steppenwolf listed as deceased, Calvin Swanwick IS J'onn J'onzz the Martian Manhunter. He has always been written that way, and that was always the plan even during his appearances in Man of Steel and Dawn of Justice. So he is still Martian Manhunter/J'onn J'onzz and should be labeled as such, but it just hasn't been revealed in the theatrical releases.--Kidcable (talk) 10:06, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

It was only Snyder's plan. Others don't have to necessarily follow his vision like Whedon or even WB. Unless Swanwick is revealed as Martian Manhuntee in a canon movie, which Snyder Cut isn't, he shouldn't be added as Martian Manhunter. MatteJohnny (talk) 20:08, 20 March 2021 (UTC)
Yes, but Snyder developed and directed the other two films prior to Justice League, and he even did a majority of the theatrical film. The plan has always been for him to be J'onn J'onzz, even if it was going to remain unrevealed during the theatrical Justice League. Therefore, the character page should be "J'onn J'onzz (DC Extended Universe)" but the Main/Current Alias should be Calvin Swanwick and not Martian Manhunter.--Kidcable (talk) 11:43, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Snyder was only going to reveal it in Justice League. But Whedon and WB discarded his plans. Snyder is gone and his cut has been pronounced as non-canon by Snyder himself, so Swanwick being Martian Manhunter doesn't matter. Also he is never once called "J'onn J'onzz" in the film. How do you know someone else won't become Martian Manhunter in future? WB is the supreme authority here, not Zack Snyder, and it's up to them to make Swanwick Martian Manhunter or not. There shouldn't be any page for J'onn J'onzz, especially as that name is never used in the film. MatteJohnny (talk) 18:53, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Literally no one else has ever been Martian Manhunter in the main continuity. He is the last of his people, and (for the most part) always has been.--Kidcable (talk) 13:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
This is a trickier situation than it's being given credit for. (I'll just go on record and say that I think the claim that Swanwick was always planned to be Martian Manhunter since Man of Steel is a bunch of hooey.) BUT, I think we need to make a better distinction between when a director's intentions are and are not canon. We used Zack Snyder's word that the Robin costume in BvS belonged to Dick Grayson, proving that Snyder's "intentions" are worth something to us, but we're also ignoring his "intention" (or "intentional retcon", in my opinion), that Swanwick was always Martian Manhunter all along.
Though I don't necessarily have a solution, I just think there's a greater discussion to be had on the rules and boundaries we as a website set for this kind of thing. We don't always put our rules in writing per se, but this seems like one of the cases for it. --Haroldrocks (talk) 19:58, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
They are both different cases. In case of Robin it was about something that was theatrically released. No one has tried to contradict Zack or remove his plans for Robin and Affleck's Batman is basically a dead project now. But especially the director for Suicide Squad, David Ayer, had confirmed Robin's identity too and he also said he was following Zack's plans. But if someone decided to make Dick Grayson non-canon, of course we should remove him.
In case of Swanwick, Whedon removed his entire role and didn't want to follow what Zack planned. His cut is still canon. It's clear we should only regard the director's intention if it's not made non-canon and others intend to follow that previous director's plans. In case of Robin however, Dick is still regarded as canon. MatteJohnny (talk) 20:31, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
This argument is so stupid to me because Dick Grayson has never actually appeared or even (directly) mentioned in a film, but Martian Manhunter has actually appeared and has been identified as such. MatteJohnny why are you so anti-Martian Manhunter being Swanwick? --Kidcable (talk) 13:44, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
There is some very intentional dialogue in Batman v Superman that suggests otherwise. I highly suggest you rewatch the film and analyze for yourself. For example, he gets mad at Lois for being irresponsible and putting people in danger in the desert, and talks about how Superman needed to keep a low profile. He definitely knows what he's talking about, which is about how the United States sees alien threats. Therefore explaining his alias of Calvin Swanwick and the reason why he's been in hiding. After the events of Justice League, he realizes that is no longer an option due to an impending attack from Darkseid himself, and he reveals himself as Martian Manhunter. --Kidcable (talk) 13:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
That isn't any intentional dialogue. He's actually talking about Lois risking people just for her story. The destruction in Metropolis was already seen by everyone and Superman was already unpopular. This is what he meant. If you read it carefully that's what he was talking about. He even makes his reason clear. MatteJohnny (talk) 20:45, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
At any rate, that's all just your speculation. --Tupka217 (talk) 20:49, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Whedon didn't just ignore, he removed Martian Manhunter's revelation entirely. He didn't remove anything from previous film including Robin's history, in fact Robin is only mentioned once in Snyder Cut and that scene was actually shot after Snyder Cut was greenlit. We don't always need the names to be mentioned on-screen, but J'onn J'onzz hasn't even been used by Snyder himself I believe. Regardless Robin's plans are still canon. Make of that what you will. MatteJohnny (talk) 21:09, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
There is nothing in the theatrical version that contradicts or even disproves Swanwick as Martian Manhunter. It never says that he is human, powerless, nor do I believe that it even mentions that he has a family on Earth. --Kidcable (talk) 14:14, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
I agree with the point that if a detail confirmed by a director outside of the film is contradicted by information in another equally canon film, we obviously side with the film. HOWEVER, I also agree that Whedon's cut doesn't necessarily contradict the idea that Swanwick was Martian Manhunter all along. Though not revealed canonically, Whedon's cut never disproved it canonically, meaning, technically, by our current standard, Snyder (a co-director on the theatrical cut) has made the official stance that a character in his film was canonically another character. And that's why I'd like to better establish the line we draw. --Haroldrocks (talk) 21:19, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Don't have to disprove though. If the reveal was removed, there's obviously a reason why. They decided to disregard his plans, a lot of them, it's widely known. MatteJohnny (talk) 21:23, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Haroldrocks explained my point perfectly. MatteJohnny just consider this for a moment before you reply: if Warner Bros. were to announce a Justice League sequel (which is currently being rumored), which director's vision would be used? The man accused of creating a volatile workplace environment and adding scenes in poor taste? Or the man who has developed the core of the DCEU and has hundreds of thousands of passionate fans? If there was a sequel, which version of "Calvin Swanwick" would Harry Lennix play?--Kidcable (talk) 14:44, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Snyder himself said Whedon's cut is canon and the Snyder cut is non-canon [4]. I don't know why you're still bringing up the question of who should be considered canon. Now please think on this before saying who supported you: why will Whedon remov a major reveal about Swanwick and why would WB keep Whedon's cut as canon? Obviously because they don't want what Snyder wanted. Also calling my rationale "stupid" is an insult. You could easily be more civil in your language. Please don't insult someone else for their opinions. MatteJohnny (talk) 21:51, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
Warner Bros. has not officially labeled Whedon's as "canon" and by canon, Snyder means that Whedon's version is the one that a majority of people were initially exposed to. He means that if there were a sequel or something, they'd have to fill people in on what happened in his cut on HBO Max so that casual theatergoers could understand. That's all. And if you really insist on crying that I insulted you personally by calling your argument "stupid" I am sorry that you feel that way. What I meant to say is that your logic and reasoning are deeply flawed.--Kidcable (talk) 15:31, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
It's laughable that you attempt to call me out for criticizing solely your argument and evidence after you wrote "There's a clear difference. Try seeing it." Hypocritical much? Please, insult my intelligence more, I beg of you.--Kidcable (talk) 15:37, 21 March 2021
It was canon as soon as it hit theater and Snyder himself calls it canon. You can weasel-word all you want. He won't be saying WB considers Whedon's cut as canon if it didn't. He didn't say anything about filling people in on about his cut. You did insult me personally and you are still insulting me. You've become fixated on renaming Swanwick to J'onn J'onzz.
Besides "There's a clear difference. Try seeing it." is not an insult in any manner, unless you want to see everything as an insult. I was actually telling you to try to see the difference, because till now you either can't understand, or deliberately don't care even if you do understand, about difference between something that is canon or not canon. This is actually pretty clear and I'm sure you understood. But I don't expect someone who resorts to insults, to be honest and not make up insults. MatteJohnny (talk) 23:12, 21 March 2021 (UTC)
This has gotten horribly off topic. The main argument I'd like to clarify is that, as displayed by the whole point of keeping sources at the top of this page, Snyder is literally quoted as saying: "my Justice League, is not canon, right? Canon for Warner Bros. is the Joss Whedon version of Justice League, right? That’s, in their mind, that’s canon. And what I’m doing is not." There is no argument about canon going on now.
And MatteJohnny, though I respect your argument and see where you're coming from and think you're articulating your positon well, I still believe you're missing the point that Zack Snyder was still technically a co-director on Joss Whedon's cut. Though the studio and Joss Whedon made the choice to cut Martian Manhunter's reveal from the theatrical release, the theatrical film is still, in large part, Zack Snyder's, and in his vision - regardless of when he had the idea - Swanwick is Martian Manhunter, and no higher authority has said he isn't Martian Manhunter.
I think at this point we're going to have to agree to disagree because we obviously have different outlooks. If other voices would like to chip in with their opinions, they're invited, but I think the circular argument is not necessarily helpful for anyone. --Haroldrocks (talk) 03:30, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
In Snyder's cut Lois Lane is pregnant. This was originally supposed to be because Batman had a romance with her after Clark died and Batman had impregnated her. This storyline had been nixed by Warner Bros Studios according to Snyder himself which is why Lois is not shown pregnant by Whedon, but now he had full freedom in directing his cut, so he restored the pregnancy. Obviously you don't need someone to say explicitly it's "non-canon" for it to be non-canon or know that a Batman/Lois Lane romance won't happen in future movies since WB doesn't want it. MatteJohnny (talk) 15:29, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
That was the initial plan, but the film doesn't explicitly say so. There was also talk of it being Superman and Lois' son who became the next Batman in the future. Kidcable (talk) 15:55, 22 March 2021 (UTC)
I apologize, he did confirm it was Lois and Superman's son in real. MatteJohnny (talk) 05:48, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
The Wrap has however published a report quoting insiders that Martian Manhunter didn't originally exist and was only added after the Whedon cut. [5] MatteJohnny (talk) 06:30, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
Though a source is always appreciated, the "insider" is nameless and doesn't outweigh the director's own statement - which The Wrap itself identifies is "that Martian Manhunter was always part of the plan." Believe me, I personally believe Snyder's claim is hooey, but without a name for their source, it's just speculative hearsay. --Haroldrocks (talk) 22:42, 18 April 2021 (UTC)
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