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  • So the biggest and most important heroes of New Earth have been under Superhero (Real Name) for a very long time due to SEO but since Prime Earth has been and will be the core Earth from here on out I think we should move the New Earth ones (at least most of them, we might want a few exceptions) to the Real Name (New Earth) format we have for the other characters and move the most important Prime Earth characters to Supergero (Real Name).

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    • We shouldn't have any pages that break the standard. Do we have any evidence of actual SEO benefits? Are there problems finding this wiki?

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    • We don't have any actual numbers, but pagenames like this work better. It's not a case of people having problems finding us, it's a case of widening the net.

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    • I don't think we should break our logical standard for SEO guesswork. Can Wikia/Fandom provide us data on numbers of hits? Otherwise, this is just groping in the dark.

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    • Viewership numbers and searches/clickthrough rates/bounces/ etc are not available on request. They did an analysis on some wikis recently, including Marvel; I might write something up on that.

      "Logical standards" and adhering to it are the bane of SEO. Having a good pagename is one of the first rules of improving SEO, you don't need numbers for that.

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    • Then why not change all of the pages to have better SEO? Why only some?

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    • Because there are thousands of character pages on the wiki and you can’t really optimize Bruce Wayne (The Nail) without just making it Batman (The Nail) which is just weird.

      And when you search up Batman you are going to get the New Earth page long before the Prime Earth one so changing the title will get what I think should be preferred higher up in search rankings.

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    • If we are voting, I vote Yes on moving the SEO-Friendly pagenames from the New Earth pages and to the Prime Earth pages. I don't see a downside.

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    • I think that we might want to consider adding more SEO-Friendly titles, at least John Stewart but likely more.

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    • How do you decide whom to add or not? When do we break consistent rules?

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    • I don't know when those were changed or how pages got picked. I feel like it was before I became an admin even but that may be wrong. I know I was never consulted on which pages anyway.

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    • I'm with Koavf on this matter. I really want to get rid of the "Codename (Real Name)" titles from the New Earth pages because they are inconsistent with the rest of the wiki and we're boosting the SEO for outdated pages. And I don't want the SEO-based titles transferred to Prime Earth either because if DC decides to reboot the multiverse again, we'll be back where we started. And a character's popularity status could change overtime. An A-lister can be demoted to a B-lister and a C-lister can get more exposure. When that happens, how do we decide whether a character gets the SEO-name treatment? And I don't think the SEO titles with the "Codename (Real Name)" format is even necessary to get our pages to the top results of a google search. When I google "booster gold" our Michael Jon Carter (New Earth) article is the third result. When I googled "batman" I can't even find our Batman (Bruce Wayne) article anywhere. It only showed up as the second result when I googled "batman bruce wayne" and Bruce Wayne (Prime Earth) was there as the fourth result. Search "saturn girl" and Imra Ardeen (Pre-Zero Hour) is the second result. While having the search term in the title does help, it's not needed to get to the top. The Marvel Database used our SEO system for certain characters in Earth-616, such as Spider-Man (Peter Parker) but they have retired it a couple years ago even though Marvel never moved away from 616. I think we should find a way to boost our rankings without resorting to ignoring our naming conventions.

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    • Thanks, Sean for providing *some* data instead of conjecture. I'll repeat: do those who support breaking the rule have anything to back up their claims other than guesswork?

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    • Wouldn’t frequent users of this site end up seeing our results higher anyway? I’m not sure Sean’s results are representative.

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    • It is definitely anecdotal and Sean (like everyone) shouldn't use Google's services and their creepy tracking but at least it's a start!

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    • Here is what I can tell you:

      As Tupka said (but didn't elaborate much on), consistent and logical naming conventions hurt SEO. The reason they hurt SEO is because google (and other search engines) interpret repetitive and similar pagenames (and filenames) as being junk data - i.e. directories of very similar things.

      So, a directory of images titled IMG0001, IMG0002, etc is bad for SEO because a) the names of those images give no information about the content of the images, and b) google interprets them as a non-descript set of files not worth indexing.

      When it comes to these SEO naming conventions, they apply to the Big 7 JLA members, and a few of their most recognizable villains. As I understand it, Wikia actually asked us to do this for them, so that we would drive viewers to our pages, and improve our pageranks on search engines. I'm assuming that rather than just choosing the Big 7, they actually made a list of top ten or so most visited character pages overall, but I couldn't say for sure.

      The explanation for Sean Wheeler's failure to find Batman is nothing to do with how bad our SEO is - it's to do with how good everyone else's SEO is. Batman is one of the world's most popular super-heroes. Saturn Girl is, by comparison, absolutely nobody. Therefore, our pages score very high in pagerankings for obscure characters - regardless of naming conventions because we are the largest, most informative, and most visited source for obscure DC characters - (again, relative obscurity).

      The fact that our SEO naming conventions don't do much to get our Batman page to the top of the results should only serve to indicate how much lower in the page rankings it would be without the SEO.

      100% promise, if we changed the name of the Imra Ardeen page to "saturn girl (Imra Ardeen)" it would be the number one result, instead of the number two result.

      Why don't we do that? Because there are at least four versions of her within mainstream continuity - not to mention multiversal or elseworlds versions. And, for the most part, we don't need a leg-up against competition for characters like Travis Cody - because nobody cares about Travis Cody (but, go figure, our page for him is 8th in google results).

      All of which is to say - I'm not opposed to doing a switcheroo between the New Earth and Prime Earth for SEO pagenames. I'm not necessarily opposed to abandoning them all together. But I do want to debunk these speculative suggestions that they weren't actually doing anything, or that they were chosen arbitrarily.

      It is the nature of the wikian type (obsessive compulsive organizers) that we want consistent naming conventions, etc. I feel the impulse strongly. But That impulse/compulsion is actually detrimental to the site's success with people who are looking from the outside in.

      Side note - whether it is safe, private, or advisable to use, google is the most used search engine in the world, and therefore is the standard by which our SEO must be judged.

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    • But choosing the (e.g.) 10 most visited pages is exactly arbitrary. The fact that we can never compete against searches for "Batman" is just as much proof that this SEO naming nonsense is folly: is it really that much better to be the 40th result instead of the 100th? Who is pouring over that many search results to find information about Batman? Plus, since the #1 result for a bunch of searches is a hugely popular wiki, we can make links from that to here (if our quality is high enough).

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    • I never heard of Travis Cody. But New Earth probably shouldn't be boosted over the current Prime Earth. It does look like the SEO titled New Earth articles are higher than our other articles in the google search. But if we decide to transfer the SEO titles to Prime Earth, we might have to decide who gets the SEO boost and who wouldn't anymore. For example, Cyborg is now a major Justice Leaguer. Would Victor Stone (Prime Earth) be moved to Cyborg (Victor Stone)? Maybe the reason we haven't moved on from New Earth is because of a dilemma deciding this. But whenever people talk about a past continuity, it's the Silver Age Earth-One that gets talked about the most. And if the multiverse gets rebooted again, we'd be back where we started. And I don't think it's good for a wiki to name characters based on popularity. That just feels biased. I think we should just get rid of the SEO names for New Earth now and decide later on if we want SEO names for Prime Earth.

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    • Koavf wrote:

      But choosing the (e.g.) 10 most visited pages is exactly arbitrary.

      Strategically targeting specific pages based on their viewership in order to increase their viewership is hardly "contingent solely upon an individual's discretion," and far from exactly that.

      Koavf wrote:

      The fact that we can never compete against searches for "Batman" is just as much proof that this SEO naming nonsense is folly

      You're welcome to run your own website into the ground, using no SEO whatsoever. We have differing priorities.

      Koavf wrote:

      Who is pouring over that many search results to find information about Batman?

      Probably nobody is poring over pages and pages of results for "Batman". Probably nobody is googling just "Batman" in the first place. But in terms of whether or not someone is going to find our pages when they google anything with the word "Batman" in it, a page that doesn't have Batman in its name at all is not going to come up as readily as one that does.

      Koavf wrote:

      Plus, since the #1 result for a bunch of searches is a hugely popular wiki, we can make links from that to here (if our quality is high enough).

      I'm not following this sentence's meaning.

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      I never heard of Travis Cody.

      You weren't meant to have. That was my intention.

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      we might have to decide who gets the SEO boost and who wouldn't anymore. For example, Cyborg is now a major Justice Leaguer.

      Fair point. Not really worth discussing right now, but yeah, maybe we would. So?

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      But whenever people talk about a past continuity, it's the Silver Age Earth-One that gets talked about the most.

      I expect it depends on how old the fan you're talking with is - but everyone I talk to about comics is talking about the post-crisis comics. I would guess if I were to talk to someone 10-15 years younger than me, and they were a fan, they'd be talking about the New 52 nostalgically.

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      And if the multiverse gets rebooted again, we'd be back where we started.

      A long time ago, I argued for these things I called "meta pages" that were SEO-enhanced pages, specifically meant to be out-of-universe publication histories for individual characters, while we retained in-universe pages using the standard universe-based naming conventions. Ultimately, it would have been great for our SEO, but it would just have been replicating wikipedia, and causing confusion about the kind of content we have here, and the standards of style between one type of character page and another.

      I mention it, because it would have skipped around the fact that our character pages are tied to continuities. In fact, the place our SEO efforts would be best focused is on disambiguation pages - which are not currently ideal, but they're also rather beasts, at the moment, and I would be loathe to see them turn out like Marvel's.

      That said, this laser-focus on continuity that encourages you to make these arguments is - as I've been saying - not how readers approach the site. Active editors on this wiki account for less than 1% of daily traffic on this wiki. Approaching wiki presentation and SEO issues from an editor's perspective is foolhardy. Folly even! Follies and frolics!

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      And I don't think it's good for a wiki to name characters based on popularity.

      I don't think it's good for oatmeal cookies to contain raisins, but some people actually prefer that, and while I think those people are both made of trash and consumers of trash, I do happen to think broccoli is pretty okay. That's a thing that I think.

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    • The SEO of the disambigs would be better if the only text was actually not ignored by the spiders. The way the template is set up, it’s counted as a table. The mobile skin soesn’t even include the text or the top spots. It’s something we have to revisit, but that’s a different discussion.

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    • Sometimes naming policy has to bend around the visitors, all of us will still know where to find Batman even if we move his page to Globdygildeswork (Planet Earth After 1985), the average person on the street just won't.

      An example of what happens when you slavishly devote yourself to naming policy at the extent of SEO is the Once Upon a Time wiki's page Valet, it is a page for the father of a main character called Regina, his (often used) name is Henry/Prince Henry but because of the naming policy his name is at Valet. While naming policy is useful (and their naming policy almost always works) sometimes it can hurt SEO so much that an exception is needed.

      Now Bruce Wayne (Prime Earth) isn't that bad but there are a lot more pages for Batman too, Batman (Bruce Wayne) will push up the SEO and Prime Earth deserves the boost more right now.

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    • Yeah. Another, probably better example: on a Tolkien wiki, all female hobbits are listed under their maiden name - because that’s how they appear on the Family Trees. The only exception is Lobelia, who is best known under her married name Sackville-Baggins, not her maiden name Bracegirdle.

      We could even apply the same to ourself. Amanda Blake is probably better known as Waller, to the point that some adaptations treat it as her maiden name. Same with Katana.

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    • Hatebunny wrote: You're welcome to run your own website into the ground, using no SEO whatsoever. We have differing priorities.

      Why you choose to be hostile and abrasive is beyond me. You can also stop with the juvenile spelling corrections. If you don't want to assume good faith, why are you working in the WikiSphere?

      Hatebunny wrote: Probably nobody is googling just "Batman" in the first place.

      Actually, someone has done an Internet search for Batman before.

      Hatebunny wrote: I'm not following this sentence's meaning.

      Wikipedia.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: Yeah. Another, probably better example: on a Tolkien wiki, all female hobbits are listed under their maiden name - because that’s how they appear on the Family Trees. The only exception is Lobelia, who is best known under her married name Sackville-Baggins, not her maiden name Bracegirdle.

      We could even apply the same to ourself. Amanda Blake is probably better known as Waller, to the point that some adaptations treat it as her maiden name. Same with Katana.

      I would love to use less maiden names, I didn’t even know about Amanda Blake, all those pages for Martha Clark are weird and I’m sure there are plenty more weird examples.

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    • You know when you google the codenames of some Marvel characters like "mr fantastic", "invisible woman", "human torch", "shadowcat", "she-hulk", "wolverine", "psylocke", their Earth-616 pages on the Marvel Database can be higher ranked than their SEO friendly titles on the official Marvel Universe Wiki? Oh and "booster gold" puts Michael Jon Carter (New Earth) higher than the Booster Gold disambiguation page. I believe we can figure out ways to boost SEO rankings without deviating from our naming conventions. In fact, I'm thinking those New Earth pages are higher in the rankings not because the name's in the title but more factors than that.

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    • Like I said above, our disamigs have no crawlable content so of course they won't be as high. SEO is a multifaceted thing, but page names are one of those facets. It helps, so why not?

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    • Well I think we should be consistent whether than decide on who's popular.

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    • I don’t.

      Hey, at least we’re not going with the latest cockamamie SEO idea, which is create one Batman page and make all the others subpages. That just wouldn’t work peactically.


      Can I also suggest we drop the “Bartholomew” and just go with “Barry”? We do the same for Hal already.

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    • I’d like Barry, though it is easier than Hal because Bartholemew makes sense as Barry I’d also be fine with using Ray as opposed to Raymond.

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    • Sure, I guess when a character is better known by a short name, it would be easier to find the page with the preferred name. All our pages on Alexander Luthor could get a boost when we call him Lex Luthor. And at least we will never have to move Mera (DC Extended Universe) to her ridiculous full name that James Wan gave her.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: Can I also suggest we drop the “Bartholomew” and just go with “Barry”? We do the same for Hal already.

      Big mood.

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    • Hatebunny wrote:

      Tupka217 wrote: Can I also suggest we drop the “Bartholomew” and just go with “Barry”? We do the same for Hal already.

      Big mood.

      I still don't know what that means.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: I still don't know what that means.

      I relate.

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    • When we change Bartholomew to Barry, would we also change Kal-El to Clark Kent or Diana of Themyscira to Diana Prince?

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    • I'd like to have Clark Kent pages, because we know for a fact in every timeline it is a legal name, I'm not as sure about Diana Prince because there are quite a few where she no longer/never goes by Diana Prince so it might only affect a handful of pages.

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    • Just FYI, here's our current page name policy, I think:

      1. Use civilian legal name instead of costumed alias (if known).

      2. If person has used several legal names in their lifetime, use their earliest one (their birth name, if known)

      3. First and last names only, no middle names (except for disambiguation)

      4. If they are commonly called by a nickname version of their legal first name (Mike instead of Michael), we still use Michael.

      5. However, if they have always been called Mike and never been called Michael, we will NOT assume their legal name is Michael (we used to do that, but we stopped).

      6. If we only know their first name, we will use their costumed alias as the page name.

      7. If we only know their last name, we will use their costumed alias as the page name unless its a common alias, then we may use the last name (for disambiguation).

      8. If we only know a first name or a last name and they don't have a costumed alias, we will use the partial name (if they really deserve a page). If it's a last name, we may add an honorific.

      9. For characters who are real historical figures or celebrities, we use the same name as their Wikipedia page (This is a new decision, there are many older pages which don't follow it)

      Please correct if wrong

      Looks like some people would like to change rules 2 & 4

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    • Re: 3. Except sometimes not: see variations on John_Henry_Irons_(New_Earth) and Booster Gold. I suggested moving a page to include a middle name and an admin here vandalized in response while saying no, it would never happen and didn't really address why sometimes we do this and sometimes we don't. It's just ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

      4. Sometimes, except Hal Jordan (but Bartholomew Allen).

      6 to 8. Sometimes but many characters have assumed or fabricated real names: e.g. I'm pretty sure (I've read all these stories more than once but can't recall every fine detail) that Metamorpho is not called Rex Mason in these realities: Rex Mason (Earth-22), Rex Mason (The Nail), Rex Mason (JSA: The Golden Age), Rex Mason (Justice). Why is he named that way? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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    • Every policy has exceptions, Wikipedia even says that several times in its policies. And I believe we assume that alternate reality counterparts share names unless proven otherwise, why almost all the Barry Allen pages are Bartholomew too.

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    • We call Green Lantern Hal to disambiguate him from Air Wave.

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    • This is where his middle name would be helpful, as we know Air Wave's. Plus, Bart Allen is "Bartholomew Allen II" (even tho he isn't Barry's son).

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    • In light of above suggested change of Bartholomew to Barry, obvs also this one to Bart.

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    • If we were to change Kal-El to Clark Kent, what about his couson Supergirl? She had different civilian names as Linda Lee Danvers, Kara Kent, and Kara Danvers. If she has to remain Kara Zor-El, I guess Superman should remain as Kal-El. Kal-El is becoming well known anyway. And if we're not going to call Diana of Themyscira Diana Prince, then I guess Superman should keep his Kryptonian name right?

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    • Clark Kent is consistent, but the others aren’t. New Earth WW was only Prince for a few years, PE WW hasn’t been. I remember there being some debate which name to use for Superman, but we didn’t go for (Kal-El/Clark Kent).

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    • SeanWheeler wrote: If we were to change Kal-El to Clark Kent, what about his couson Supergirl?

      Kara Zor-El may be her only consistent name, but it IS consistent. It has been used by all of her incarnations up to the date. Now, it was up to me, her civilian name would always be Linda Danvers (rather than Kara Kent, Linda Lang or Kara Danvers), right like her cousin's is always Clark Kent. But obviously it was never up to me, and whatever what I think is obviously irrelevant to WB/DC.

      I think Kara Danvers may become permanent and widely known due to the tv show, though.

      Schroeswald wrote: Now Bruce Wayne (Prime Earth) isn't that bad but there are a lot more pages for Batman too, Batman (Bruce Wayne) will push up the SEO and Prime Earth deserves the boost more right now.

      I agree.

      To be truthful, I had been wondering for a while why NE Superman and Batman were Superman (Clark Kent) and Batman (Bruce Wayne) rather Kal-El (New Earth) and Bruce Wayne (New Earth)... and why Supergirl's main page wasn't Supergirl (Kara Zor-El) then, but I didn't think that matter was important enough to ask about it.

      Although I guess it's easy to guess since her then-main page was created only one year after her return, when fans might still have in mind other Supergirls.

      Back on topic, I agree the Prime Earth versions are the ones should have the push.

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    • When were those New Earth characters moved to their SEO-friendly titles? Was it 2009? A couple years before New Earth ended? If so, then I don't think the Prime Earth pages should be moved to the SEO titles because we really wouldn't know when DC would announce another Crisis/Flashpoint-type event that moves the main continuity to another Earth.

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    • They were moved before we had any idea New Earth would end in our lifetime.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: They were moved before we had any idea New Earth would end in our lifetime.

      Exactly. And we don't know if Prime Earth would end either. Which is why I think the Prime Earth pages should keep following the naming conventions while the New Earth SEO pages should be moved to their naming convention appropriate titles. Even if Batman (Bruce Wayne) makes better google results than Batman (New Earth), the title is not the only factor is it? And besides, Wikia is changing our domain to fandom.com. Would we really trust them about SEO?

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    • SeanWheeler wrote: And besides, Wikia is changing our domain to fandom.com. Would we really trust them about SEO?

      Wikia changed its name to Fandom 2 years ago. This was a long time coming. And while I don't remotely trust Fandom to run a business, I trust them about SEO because they have the numbers to demonstrate the correlations. As administrators, we have access to some limited viewership numbers, but it's not enough to know that of individual pages.

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    • Yep, and they've run some tests on 2600 wikis last year, to see how SEO would be impacted. They haven't shared results, but since they're going ahead with it. People on the test wikis have reported a minor dip at first, which is normal, but picks back up quick enough.

      Maybe Council NDA-breaking spoiler: things are definitely looking up. Pity it took another chopping board. Why do they keep firing my go-to people?

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    • Hmm... So they haven't shared the results? They've done stuff like take away Monaco and Monobook and made other forced changes on us. Yeah, I think Batman, Superman and the other New Earth heroes with SEO titles should go back to following our naming conventions.

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    • I don't see how the first sentence supports the second.

      On the SEO front, a lot has been done in the lasy year alone, and googling "DC Database" no longer leads to government databases.

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    • Well, the fact that they never told us the SEO results plus some shady changes they made makes me suspicious. And this site was always called "DC Database," so if googling the term used to bring up government databases, we didn't change our name to get rid of them. I think a lot of people searched for us and that got us higher rankings than the government stuff or something. I think we should test what happens when those characters start following our naming conventions. I think we could start by moving Catwoman (Selina Kyle) to Selina Kyle (New Earth) and see how the google rankings change when you google "catwoman."

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    • Don’t think too much of it. It was always meant to be an internal test. Ith good results, they’d go ahead. With bad results, they would reconsider. I could prod Brandon in Council if any results are made public, but it’s probably so technical the layman’s version is what I mentioned above.

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    • Correction: they shared some basics.

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    • Well, we've been moved to FANDOM. Anything affecting our Google search?

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    • Pretty much exactly the same, a quick search through this and a few other new fandoms, nothing different I can tell. Batman might even be a little bit higher if you search Batman (or I just didn't notice it last time I looked through the search results.

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    • Yeah, because the effect is noticeable immediately. Google spiders are just ready to pounce.

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    • Yeah, it may take a while to adjust Google to the new name. But at least dc.wikia.com still redirects here. I think we should move those New Earth pages to their proper names and leave the SEO titles as redirects.

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    • Why would we redirect the best SEO names to the comics that less casual fans will be looking for? (Casual for comics) Thats my whole point, Prime Earth should have the better SEO because that is what is more important right now, Rebirth has solidified what they want so we shouldn't boost Flash (Barry Allen) when people looking for the comic characters will be more likely to want to find Bartholomew Allen (Prime Earth).

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    • Well then, redirect the SEO titles to the Prime Earth pages. Maybe that way, Prime Earth can get a bigger boost without breaking naming conventions.

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    • Now that my bot is freed up again after Antagonists and :*s, I think I'll move all the Bartholomew Allens first.

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    • Hang on, all the Bartholomew Allens? Have we agreed on calling him Barry Allen, yet? Because I still have questions on the change from Kal-El to Clark Kent.

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    • How are those questions about Superman related to Barry?

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    • SeanWheeler wrote: Well then, redirect the SEO titles to the Prime Earth pages. Maybe that way, Prime Earth can get a bigger boost without breaking naming conventions.

      For what it is worth, I agree with this.

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    • SeanWheeler wrote: Hang on, all the Bartholomew Allens? Have we agreed on calling him Barry Allen, yet? Because I still have questions on the change from Kal-El to Clark Kent.

      I feel like there was a general consensus that Bartholomew Allen should be moved to Barry. There has been no consensus on moving superman one way or the other. Personally, outside of SEO page-naming, I think Superman should continue to link to Kal-El - if only to preserve the distinction between real names and assumed names. Martian Manhunter is still J'onn Jonzz, regardless of whether he calls himself John Jones. Wonder woman is still Diana - an Amazon with no last name - and not her assumed "Diana Prince" alias.

      Meanwhile, Barry Allen's name is Barry. It's not an assumed name. It's a nickname for a rarely used long-form name that someone may once have seen on an in-panel driver's license, or something.

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    • And Bartholemew Allen II to Bart right? I do think that Clark Kent is consistently (and legally) used in every iteration of the character, starting from childhood, but Diane Prince and John Jones were adopted as adults and irregularly used.

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    • Schroeswald wrote: And Bartholemew Allen II to Bart right?

      Yes.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: Now that my bot is freed up again after Antagonists and :*s, I think I'll move all the Bartholomew Allens first.

      And of course the domain move messes up AWB. Everything and their mother messes up AWB.

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    • Should Kara Zor-El (Prime Earth) be moved to Supergirl (Kara Zor-El)? That is her real name and it is consistently used by every version of the character (unlike her Earth names).

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    • I think we should just get a project page up with several key points people can vote on

      • Should they be expanded? A lot has changed in notoriety with the public.
        • If so, who?
      • Should they be kept at all?
      • Which real name should be used; birth name or legal name?
      • Should it be NE or PE?
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    • Schroeswald wrote: but Diane Prince and John Jones were adopted as adults and irregularly used.

      I'd like to add: in some iterations Diana Prince and John Jones are real people, whose identities have been borrowed/taken over by Wonder Woman and Martian Manhunter.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: I think we should just get a project page up with several key points people can vote on

      • Should they be expanded? A lot has changed in notoriety with the public.
        • If so, who?
      • Should they be kept at all?
      • Which real name should be used; birth name or legal name?
      • Should it be NE or PE?

      Another thing would be Kal-El --> Clark Kent, but I would like to have that.

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    • Yeah, and for New Earth, Diana Prince was only an alias for maybe 4 years max.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: I think we should just get a project page up with several key points people can vote on

      • Should they be expanded? A lot has changed in notoriety with the public.
        • If so, who?
      • Should they be kept at all?
      • Which real name should be used; birth name or legal name?
      • Should it be NE or PE?

      No, they shouldn't be expanded. That would cause a lot of fights in the wiki with users wanting their favorite characters to get the SEO titles. I think we should abandon the SEO titles altogether. Even if we make a compromise to make all Prime Earth characters SEO-friendly, there is a small chance of DC announcing a reboot in the comics interrupting our work. So nope, no SEO titles. All the characters on New Earth should be "Birth Name (New Earth)" and all characters on Prime Earth should be "Birth Name (Prime Earth)" and all the old SEO titles should redirect to the Prime Earth pages before they disappear from google.

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    • How would having the SEO tile on a redirect page work? I'm imagining they just see the redirect and an otherwise empty page.

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      • Should they be expanded? A lot has changed in notoriety with the public.
        • If so, who?

      I think the SEO titles should be expanded to include at the very least the main Leaguers (The Seven Original Founders, Green Arrow, Black Canary, Cyborg, Atom, Zatanna...) and the most important sidekicks/partners (Dick Grayson, Wally West, Barbara Gordon, Kara Zor-El...). John Stewart and Jessica Cruz should probably being given SEO names, too.

      • Should they be kept at all?

      I don't exactly like them, but I guess they should be kept if our mods think they improve the Wikia's visibility.

      • Which real name should be used; birth name or legal name?

      I think it depends on what name is usually associated with the character. Superman is ALWAYS Clark Kent/Kal-El, and I think most of people know that.

      • Should it be NE or PE?

      PE. The New Earth versions have been retired. Superman (Clark Kent) does not lead to Earth-One or Earth-Two Superman for one reason.

      If DC reboots their universe again... then I guess we'll have to update the names again.

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    • Kyletheobald wrote: How would having the SEO tile on a redirect page work? I'm imagining they just see the redirect and an otherwise empty page.

      By the way of how the wikia URL this morning worked after we've been moved to fandom. Okay, the fandom url is rising up more. But when I looked up Booster Gold, I'm still getting the same results with dc.wikia.com/wiki/Michael_Jon_Carter_(New_Earth) still being the #3 result.

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    • SeanWheeler wrote:

      No, they shouldn't be expanded.

      disagree.

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      That would cause a lot of fights in the wiki with users wanting their favorite characters to get the SEO titles.

      Or one fight, on a policy thread, where one user keeps claiming that we shouldn't have them at all, over and over, despite every indication that they are important.

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      I think we should abandon the SEO titles altogether.

      Oh, would you look at that.

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      There is a small chance of DC announcing a reboot in the comics interrupting our work.

      Thence, why the most culturally significant versions of the characters have had the SEO pagenames, to date... But also, So?

      SeanWheeler wrote:

      So nope, no SEO titles. All the characters on New Earth should be "Birth Name (New Earth)" and all characters on Prime Earth should be "Birth Name (Prime Earth)"

      Disagree. See also: we're already moving against that, by moving Bartholomew to Barry - and rightly so.

      SeanWheeler wrote: All the old SEO titles should redirect to the Prime Earth pages before they disappear from google.

      I might be wrong, but I suspect that placing these titles on redirects will cause google (and any other reputable search engine) to ignore them. full stop. So, your suggestion is, basically, to make characters like Aquaman - who are only known by their superhero alias, outside of comic book superfandom, harder to find on search engines, and to waste time renaming redirects to pagenames that have no beneficial effect for us.

      The horse you've hitched your wagon to is dead, and y'all won't quit beating it.

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    • But if we were to move the Prime Earth pages to the SEO titles and decide to expand on it due to shift in exposure of different characters, how often would we judge a character as needing a SEO boost? When a character becomes irrelevant or unpopular, would they go back to following the naming conventions?

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    • We wouldn’t pick important for the day people, the big six, Cyborg, Dick, Damian, John Stewart, Wally, Oliver etc. will always be high up in what people or looking for so they get the boost (and everyone on that list I think should get it), we won’t pick people like Pandora who have been important for this crossover but nowhere else.

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    • There are two thread here: one is if it works (not proven) and the other is if we do should do it. I don't think we should do it, even if it works.

      Another alternative is to move all pages to names like "Superman: Kal-El (New Earth)" or "Superman/Kal-El (New Earth)".

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    • In response to:

      1. No.
      2. Fuck no.
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    • Why is it you think it's okay to vandalize this wiki?

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    • Since the mods are very confident with the SEO titles working I think it's pointless to continue that line of discussion.

      I don't like the SEO titles breaking the "Real Name (Universe)" naming system , but as long as it helps...

      And to be honest, I think "Codename: Name (Universe)" looks worse and is less search-intuitive and more needlessly complicated.

      I'm in favor of using the SEO titles with the PE versions.

      I think a good rule is to use the original, full names unless the character is better known by their second name or nickname. So, it should be Barry Allen (Flash) instead of Bartholomew Allen (Flash) because, well, do you think someone that needs to look up Barry Allen will know -or google- his full name?

      Clark Kent/Kal-El is trickier. I'm sure Superman is best known as Clark Kent, but Kal-El isn't an unknown name, either.

      The main Leaguers (Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash -both Barry and Wally-, Green Lantern -Hal and John and maaaaybe Jessica-, Aquaman, Martian Manhunter, Cyborg, Black Canary, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Atom, Zatanna...), sidekicks/partners (Dick Grayson, Barbara Gordon, Kara Zor-El, maaaaaybe Kon-El...), Titans (Starfire, Raven, Beast Boy), villains like Lex Luthor or Joker, and some characters like Constantine or Swamp thing should have SEO names.

      I think Supergirl should have a SEO name. Although I wouldn't call her an A-Lister, I think she has gained notoriety since her NE page was created back in 2004. Not only she has gotten a monthly for most of those fifteen years but also she has turned up in a live-action series, starred in another, showed up in several animated films, cartoons (one of which will premiere this year) and video games, and it is rumored she will have another live action film.

      I think her -hypothetical- SEO name should be "Supergirl (Kara Zor-El)" because: her real name is her only consistent name, and "Kara Danvers" isn't widely known yet; and the non-Karas Supergirl are pretty obscure.

      I don't think Power Girl needs a SEO name because she has fallen off the radar, sadly.

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    • Koavf wrote: Why is it you think it's okay to vandalize this wiki?

      What are you talking about, you say they’re vandalizing but the rest of us have no clue how.

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    • The policy page is only 275 words, including:

      The Database Project is completely intolerant of Advertising and Obscenities. Advertising often takes the form of links other websites selling unrelated items such as software and pharmaceuticals. There is absolutely no value to our project and creates more work for our editors. Obscenities are also of no added value, but certainly can offend visiting readers and lower our perception as a valid resource in the comic community.

      It's disappointing that an admin here refuses to abide by a valuable policy for not being hostile.

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    • There’s a difference between using obscenities and vandalism, Tupka cussing isn’t vandalizing the wiki, I understand telling him that it’s against policies but he isn’t vandalizing it.

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    • It's literally on our policy for vandalism. I don't know what to tell you: I didn't draft it. See the page:

      "Vandalism is an unfortunate side-effect of maintaining a database on the internet which anyone can edit. It can appear in many forms: Testing, Obscenities, Link-Spamming and/or Advertising."

      Again, I would hope that no one would vandalize the wiki and I would hold admins to a higher standard. I have already mentioned Tupka217's vandalism upstream in this thread but didn't call him out by name because there was no need to escalate it. He insisted on doing it again in this thread for some reason.

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    • Cussing on a forum is not vandalism. It's just being rude. Replacing text on a mainspace page with swear words is vandalism. There is a difference between discussions and articles. You can't really vandalize a discussion unless you edit someone elses posts, which nobody can do without admin privileges and who would want to abuse their admin privileges in that way?

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    • I'm not really here to litigate the policy nor is that the function of this thread. But the policy is clear that obscenity is vandalism and the reasoning is that it is off-putting for collaborators, which is exactly why it is germane to discussions rather than the content of the database itself: Editors participate in threads and admins in particular need to be welcoming. This thread shouldn't be derailed because of one admin's vandalism but suffice it to say that his behavior is unacceptable based on the spirit and letter of policy and the policy is just that: a policy on vandalism. If we all want to have a thread on revising our vandalism policy to allow admins to be rude, crass, and off-putting, that can be in another thread.

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    • People giving their opinion in a discussion is not vandalism. Deliberately causing damage to a page is.

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    • Your objection to the policy is noted. If you want to change the policy which prohibits obscenity on the site, then please suggest it at the appropriate venue. This thread is a discussion of the merits of SEO names making exceptions to another policy.

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    • Good news everybody I used my senior admin powers to update the fucking page so that dumbass shit from 13 years ago is gone: DC Database:Vandalism. Please stop derailing important conversations to complain about swear words. That is much much more annoying and counter-productive to the site than saying fuck.

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    • Well, I for one am glad we finally have rule by fiat. Thanks.

      It seems like the discussion here is intractable anyway. Proposed solutions are just "no" so I guess the naming policy will be arbitrarily enforced just like the vandalism one.

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    • Koavf wrote:

      Well, I for one am glad we finally have rule by fiat. Thanks.

      If it's any consolation, we never made any illusions to the contrary. Policy is and has always been decided by admins; suggested by users.

      Despite my some-time efforts to update old policy pages, we have been functional in terms of enforcing policies, by focusing on the practical side of maintaining good categorization, and a certain standard of quality. The rest is mostly common sense.

      The vandalism policy is unneeded. We don't need a document explaining why we would remove spam or nonsense from pages. They don't belong on pages. Simply stating the definition of vandalism - deliberately mischievous or malicious destruction or damage of property - should suffice. If, by consensus, the admins should all agree that using the word "fuck" as an intensifier is not malicious destruction or damage - then it isn't.

      Likewise, if - with new policy suggestions brought to our attention by our userbase - the admins don't feel confident that it's a good decision to make the change, we'll explain why, to the best of our ability, and if no more convincing counter-argument can be made - we're not obligated to make the change.

      That said, in this case, we have certainly suggested compromises and alternative approaches, in line with a more moderate (and flexible) perspective on the naming conventions. The fact that those compromises and alternatives amount to a "no" for you - whose comparatively extreme position is to simply do away with them altogether - isn't evidence that we're obstinate - it's evidence that you are.

      Such is mango.

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    • You are misstating or misunderstanding my perspective. I offered one solution which seemed pretty sensible to me: stick to the policy as written and apply it to pages. I offered two other suggestions for how they could be titled and also retain these magical SEO-happy names and the response was "no". No reasoning or negotiation but "no". That's not *me* being obstinate.

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    • Well, I would like the names to stick to the policy. We've got disambiguations for the codename and users on this site are getting confused about the SEO titles. I think we should try to be consistent with character page names. There are people who hate exceptions and especially exceptions to characters they find overrated. And we don't know for sure how the SEO stuff works. Booster Gold didn't need it for his non-SEO article to get the third spot. Yeah, I know I've been beating a dead horse, but honestly I don't think we really need the SEO thing.

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    • SeanWheeler wrote:

      There are people who hate exceptions and especially exceptions to characters they find overrated. And we don't know for sure how the SEO stuff works.

      I fail to see how the existence of those people in itself justifies making policy changes to accommodate their particular sensitivity. There's plenty more than pagenames that are inconsistent or require exceptions on this site - and it's more because the work we do here is herding cats, not cattle.

      Also, I know how SEO works, because I thought, once upon a time, "gosh, this inconsistency of page-naming is weird. I wonder why we do that," and then I read about it, and I talked with people here, and I talked to people from Wikia, and I came to understand that anything that boosts the wiki's SEO is good for the wiki, regardless of how it makes obsessive compulsive nerds like us feel. Editors are the minority. Readers are the silent majority.

      SeanWheeler wrote: Booster Gold didn't need it for his non-SEO article to get the third spot.

      I already explained why this is the case. Booster Gold is not a multi-million-dollar enterprise, nor a source of much online news or content. An SEO title for him would be like advertising shoes when you have a monopoly on shoes and everybody who can see your ad needs shoes. The same is not true for batman. It would certainly help Booster Gold to have an SEO-friendly pagename, but it's help it doesn't need, unless we want to get really competitive about being the first result on google.

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    • I do not need to see Booster Gold any higher to click on it, we don’t need to go crazy for something we’re already numbers 3 and 4 (4 being the disambig). When we’re numbers 100, or 50 or even page two, boosting the searches is reasonable and it helps us.

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    • Well, I still have concerns about the possibility of DC rebooting. For most of the time we were boosting New Earth, New Earth was the previous continuity and Prime Earth was the current. Look, New Earth was only the right universe to boost for only three years. And then Flashpoint happened, and now the SEO titles have been stuck with the dead universe for eight years. We don't know if DC would have a big Crisis event in 2020.

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    • We also don’t know if the universe will reset and Dick will be Robin again, shouldn’t stop us from listing him as Nightwing, New Earth lasted 25 years, Earth One lasted 27, Prime Earth could be reset next year, it could be reset in twenty, shouldn’t stop us from boosting it.

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    • I agree. We should boost Prime Earth until it is replaced, whenever it happens.

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    • Schroeswald wrote: We also don’t know if the universe will reset and Dick will be Robin again, shouldn’t stop us from listing him as Nightwing, New Earth lasted 25 years, Earth One lasted 27, Prime Earth could be reset next year, it could be reset in twenty, shouldn’t stop us from boosting it.

      Well, at least with Nightwing, his codename is on the infobox that can be edited by anyone and not in page titles that could only be moved by admins. There are a lot of move requests. Making SEO titles for the most popular characters in Prime Earth and adjusting with relevance can make a big mess.

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    • I feel like we have invited this.

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    • By the way, Google has updated our links to show "fandom.com" and our pages are still in the same spots! And when I type "batman wikia", Batman (Bruce Wayne) is the second result even though the only usage of the word "Wikia" left on the page is the tagline "FANDOM powered by Wikia."

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    • SeanWheeler wrote:

      Schroeswald wrote: We also don’t know if the universe will reset and Dick will be Robin again, shouldn’t stop us from listing him as Nightwing, New Earth lasted 25 years, Earth One lasted 27, Prime Earth could be reset next year, it could be reset in twenty, shouldn’t stop us from boosting it.

      Well, at least with Nightwing, his codename is on the infobox that can be edited by anyone and not in page titles that could only be moved by admins. There are a lot of move requests. Making SEO titles for the most popular characters in Prime Earth and adjusting with relevance can make a big mess.

      Of the Move discussions at least 43 are unarchived (I simply counted all the ones where the first link was redlinked and a handful of ones I already knew were moved, there are likely a few that were moved and still had redirects), that leaves less than 57, which is still a lot but a reasonable amount with 100,000+ pages.

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    • What am I, chopped liver? My bot's been making overtime this past week. It's currently racing through volumes. Still one volume to go and then the mess that is Blue Beetle volume numbering is gone.

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    • Tupka217 wrote: What am I, chopped liver? My bot's been making overtime this past week. It's currently racing through volumes. Still one volume to go and then the mess that is Blue Beetle volume numbering is gone.

      And praise for that, following the chain of comics was nigh-impossible.

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    • A FANDOM user
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