FANDOM


  • Starting a new discussion because the old one has well over a hundred replies already and new info can get lost.

    I thought about asking some general SEO questions to staff, which resulted in me having an hour long Slack call with FishTank about SEO and UX and stuff. Some major points from that call, which I suggest we'd implement, are

    (and these are ones we can feasibly implement and are darlings I have no issue with killing)

    • SEO pages names work.
    • They should point to the present version. Yep, Prime Earth. He actually suggested making the short version the main page - so Batman - but yeah, no thanks.
    • The most common name should be used as a pagename. Like the moves of Barry and Bart Allen, so too should we do with the currently very, very hot "William Batson". Not only does this improve UX, having links called "Billy" link to a page called "William" can lead to being punished on Google. Google does see Billy as a variant of William and adjusts its results based on it, but that's not as clear among users globally.
    • Speaking of William Batson, move it to Shazam (Billy Batson).
    • Our page templates suck because they put the ToC above the lead and the quote isn't much of an intro. Starting a page with a quote is bad for search engines. Unfortunately, there's no simple way of ditching the page templates - a relic from early days, when it seemed the only way to standardize things. Page templates is a whole other can of worms I'm quite willing to pull open another day.
    • Notices: general rule of thumb: notices for readers at the top, notices for editors at the bottom. Images, quotes and the DC logo in them are needless distractions.
    • {{Main}} under sections is a good thing to have, as long as it's clearly graphically offset from the rest of the section.
    • Our massive powers templates - Kryptonian, Firestorm, Amazon, Martian etc... are not helpful. For good SEO, about 80% of a page has to be unique and on smaller pages, like one issue Kryptonians, that wall of text makes it a trash page, which hurts overall site scores. A better way to do it would be just say they have standard powers and link that to Kryptonians#Powers.
    • Speaking of unique content, NavBoxes on character pages are another no-no.
    • The AIQG links are useful, but that would be something we could also have in the infobox. The numbers aren't really necessary, and they're broken anyway on pages with '.
    • Like it or not, galleries in the infobox with every alias and the civilian ID are better.
    • Because of Fandom's Dynamic Categories, categories are indexed better - previous design counted them as duplicate pages and ignored them. As a consequence... we should really cut down on them, because some are duplicates. Whether I'd want to ditch hair and eye color I'm not sure, but there's no real need to sort characters by weight and height. Height perhaps, but by feet increments only.
    • Generally, search engines can't (yet?) identify significance of certain words in pagenames, unless they're divided. "New Earth/Characters" is better than "New Earth Characters". "Captain Marvel/Titles" is better than "Captain Marvel Titles". Locations, Villains, Supporting Cast, et cetera.
    • Concerning locations: since it might not be feasible to build in an autocat override, we might want to remove all higher level entries. So we'd just fill out State and maybe Country for Gotham City, not Galaxy and Star System.
    • Galleries are better off with captions. If the caption is "Batman on a rooftop, #85", it shouldn't be in a gallery.

    Concerning Category:Characters by Association:

    • These could do with UX improving content, as the improved SEO of categories drives them to the foreground. It might be possible to whip up a template which fetches the main version and image from the disambig and have links to /Supporting Cast, /Villains, /Titles and some more, suggestions are welcome.

    And concerning our not-actually-Disambigs - mostly another can of worms but included for the heck of it.

    • They're not actually disambigs, and labeling them as such might hurt SEO, as Disambigs are noindex in more recent versions of MediaWiki (Fandom isn't planning on staying forked 1.19 forever). And the current template is not portable. A few months ago, I was doing some regular RC patrolling on my cell phone at work, and I was appalled by Carmine Falcone. The main image was the Deathstroke one. The top section isn't portable, so it doesn't show.
    • The two image solution was to deal with the New 52, but is both technically and UX-wise suboptimal. And be honest, like the SEO names, we're so deep into Prime that they should get top spot.
    • If we get one top spot, it should be on the right. It can be a short portable infobox.
    • In our discussion, we used Shazam as an example (have I mentioned he's hot at the moment?). It's really a bad example, as it's two disambigs rolled into one. However, other than the large chunk of text, it doesn't explain the significance of who or what this "Jebediah of Canaan" and "Mamaragan" are. The top section of previous mainstreams and other bearers could do with a better explanation. (also, get rid of the effing robot).
    • AIQG links are quite useful as a shortcut to us editors, but only add confusion to readers. Consider letting them go.
    • What "Elseworlds", "Other Media" etc. could do with brief general explanations.
    • Contentious point I'm not sure about: splitting off long galleries. List maybe the 8-10 most prominent versions, shunt the rest of Batman's 1-issue imaginary story versions into a sub page.

    Some of these issues aren't really a community discussion/vote/whatever thing but more of a thing for just the admins (especially the / issue). We all love Jamie, but we're dealing with relics of 2006 Jamie with 2006 software solutions, 2006 internet users and 2006 internet.

      Loading editor
    • Thanks for this--it seems very thorough. As to one minor point, I'm very much in favor of using slashes as a hierarchy, so it's good to see that things like "Captain Marvel/Titles" is better than "Captain Marvel Titles". I'm not concerned with SEO but I am in favor of good information architecture and this seems like an improvement.

        Loading editor
    • And another thing I forgot - Instead of Captain Marvel/Titles, Captain Marvel/Comics. Titles is the technical term few will use.

        Loading editor
    • I've created a sort of template for Category:Characters by Association, {{Characters by Association}}, though I'm not happy with it. I suck at Fetch. Or maybe I try to Fetch the unfetchable.

      I've also repurposed a weird relic from the Marvel templates. They have an overview section above the history. I've removed the headers, so now we've got actual leads. Here's an example. It may take a lot of manual work, and it may not be needed for lot of small characters, but for large and prominent ones, it's a UX must.

        Loading editor
    • What does "by association" mean?

        Loading editor
    • I didn't pick the name. I still don't understand the name. It's the category that stores all the top level categories - Batman, Superman, etc.

        Loading editor
    • Digest version:

      • SEO names to Prime Earth
      • Shorthand names over full names - Billy Batson, Bat Lash, maybe even Lex Luthor
      • We now have leads, or | Overview = , a short intro that's above the ToC
      • Notices: reader notice top, editor notice bottom
      • No navboxes on character pages
      • No copied powers section for every minor member of an alien race --> powers on Race page.
      • Ditch height, weight categories, maybe even hair and eye color.
      • Slashes in categories: New Earth/Characters, Captain Atom/Titles (or /Comics)
      • One top spot for disambigs, current version, on the right. Infobox-style. Current layout is not portable, and two-image version never will be.
      • Create a top row with 3-5 most important alternates, with explanation to their significance
      • Ditch AICQ except on main versions.
        Loading editor
    • Thanks for this. I know you touched on galleries in the OP but I was wondering if there had been any progress on the discussion we had about galleries a while ago. It seems a consensus was never reached about how they should be done and how many images should be included.

        Loading editor
    • Samohyeah wrote: Thanks for this. I know you touched on galleries in the OP but I was wondering if there had been any progress on the discussion we had about galleries a while ago. It seems a consensus was never reached about how they should be done and how many images should be included.

      No, we never really had clear concensus. Besides, pruning proved a mammoth task.

        Loading editor
    • Are we talking about gallery lengths or comments? I know you mentioned it's better for SEO to have comments but I've seen super-weird comments added. I think unless there are strict guidelines, they end up detracting from the page at worst and not uniform between galleries at best. We also get ones on female characters that are overly...sexual might be the way to put it.

        Loading editor
    • Yeah, just allowing everyone to come up with captions is a bad idea. But what should the captions say? "Batman on a rooftop"? "Batman by Jim Lee"? "Batman and Robin"? "Batman from Batman #327"? Honestly, while that means the search engines can scrape something, it's not much and it's still repetitive. I honestly don't know how to resolve that. Though at the very least, internal panels that aren't splash pages shouldn't be in a large gallery.

      Am I a misanthrope if I say sexual captions are better because it's what people will search for?

        Loading editor
    • I think it's more likely people looking for something to rail against (Me Too, SJW) will find them rather than droves of pervs. In either situation, clicks but bad press resulting from it isn't great.

        Loading editor
    • What? Don't have "sexual captions" on here. What...?

      Captions can realistically be anything from an explanation of what is happening (Batman diving from a rooftop), to context ("His final battle with Bane"), or a quotation ("I am the night!") in addition to out of universe style things like "Jim Lee's first Justice League cover" or "Promotional art for Green Lantern". But not "sexual captions".

        Loading editor
    • Before you all get side-tracked on off-topic nonsense:

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • SEO names to Prime Earth

      Great. Make it so. (I'll bet you've already started, haven't you?)

      • Shorthand names over full names - Billy Batson, Bat Lash, maybe even Lex Luthor

      Agreed.

      • We now have leads, or | Overview = , a short intro that's above the ToC

      When you say "we now have" do you mean you've done it already? I'm in favour of that, if it works, and looks good. I was trying to do something like that with the snippet templates/modules, but it never worked properly on mobile.

      • Notices: reader notice top, editor notice bottom

      I thought this was site policy anyway.

      • No navboxes on character pages

      That'll give Billy a sad, but I don't care.

      • No copied powers section for every minor member of an alien race --> powers on Race page.

      Despite all the insane amount of work people have put into those templates, I really hate them, so the less space they take up on pages, the better.

      • Ditch height, weight categories, maybe even hair and eye color.

      Definitely ditch height/weight categories. They're inconsistent as metrics. I'm a little more precious about hair and eye colour, but realistically, I doubt anyone's looking for characters by those traits.

      • Slashes in categories: New Earth/Characters, Captain Atom/Titles (or /Comics)

      Fine by me.

      • One top spot for disambigs, current version, on the right. Infobox-style. Current layout is not portable, and two-image version never will be.

      This is going to have to be a much larger discussion about what a disambig even should be, in terms of a site like this. I always figured it should be a text list, but the fact that we put them on the "Batman" pages, etc. robs us of a valuable SEO pagename we could be using for something else (what, though?) and basically sends people to very weighty pages full of images that are awful on mobile, and not much better on desktop. Ideally, we give no characters priority at all... I dunno. Rather not get into it here and now, so - hey, if you're reading this, put your response on a shelf somewhere, and just walk away right now.

      • Create a top row with 3-5 most important alternates, with explanation to their significance

      see above.

      • Ditch AICQ except on main versions.

      See above, but also, agree/don't care. Never use them.

        Loading editor
    • Hatebunny wrote:

      • We now have leads, or | Overview = , a short intro that's above the ToC

      When you say "we now have" do you mean you've done it already? I'm in favour of that, if it works, and looks good. I was trying to do something like that with the snippet templates/modules, but it never worked properly on mobile.

      I wanted to put a section in above the History. Then I noticed in the code there was something called Overview, which is something Marvel uses, apparently. Except it had a header, negating its usefulness. The oh-so-difficult coding I did was.... remove the headers. It's essentially a second history section. The change is primarily a UX one. It works on Mercury. Concerning Snippers, it's too soon to see how Google scrapes it, but it's probably treated the same as the history section.

      And yes, I've started moving. Part I, the New Earth move, is finished. The Prime Earth moves take longer than anticipated. Aquaman is done, Batman is busy, almost finished. I've left images, quotes and appearances at "Bruce Wayne (Prime Earth)", but all other content links are changed.

        Loading editor
    • Hatebunny wrote:

      • Shorthand names over full names - Billy Batson, Bat Lash, maybe even Lex Luthor

      Agreed.

      Ones I can think of: Dick Grayson, Jay Garrick (who on earth calls him Jason?), Tim Drake, Ted Kord... but that's also a separate discussion point.

        Loading editor
    • When was the last time Jay was called Jason? It would be much harder to figure out his first name and this search for it than the other three, Dick and Tim have only one option, while Ted has a few Theodore is actually used by people, but Jay Garrick could be many different ones, Jason, Jeremy, Jacob, Jared, John and many more.

        Loading editor
    • Dick might be the only option - for English speakers. But for international readers, the relation might not be as clear.

        Loading editor
    • I of course don’t think that we should use Richard, just using it as an example of how awful Jason is relative to the rest.

        Loading editor
    • SEO page moves are done. I'll check for double redirects, wanted pages and other errors once the cache updates.

        Loading editor
    • Since we're using Clark Kent, I think that instead of Vandal Adg, which I can't imagine is used outside whenever we see his origin and I just found out while clicking on a random link to the New Earth page, we should have Vandal Savage, because Adg is so unused that we haven't used it for any iteration outside of the main comic universes.

        Loading editor
    • Like I get it, this helps seo but how far do we want to take this? Do we need to boost our 500th most popular page? Do we throw out all naming conventions in pursuit of a higher google result? I’m not arguing that we don’t do moves but I also think we should set some standards because this could completely rewrite our current naming conventions.

        Loading editor
    • I for one don't really support the whole birth names thing, most of the time current name would be better for SEO and more accurate to the comics, the only one I can think of that birth is the best name is Lois Lane, who is a big enough character to bend some rules (and to a lesser extent New Earth Felicity Smoak, where people searching for it would be very confused by her comic counterpart making Felicity Raymond more accurate and less confusing but with worse SEO).

        Loading editor
    • I think Vandal is a bit too low on the priority list.

      And not all of this is SEO, user experience is important too. But no on Felicity Raymond.

        Loading editor
    • I thought I hit "Preview" instead of "Publish"... Editing post now.

      Wow. I completely missed this discussion. Great.

      I'll admit most of the technical stuff goes over my head, but I'll try to give my two cents.

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • SEO names to Prime Earth

      Back in the old thread I supported the move, so great.

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • Shorthand names over full names - Billy Batson, Bat Lash, maybe even Lex Luthor

      May I suggest Kara Zor-El (Prime Earth) is moved to Supergirl (Kara Danvers)? That name is used by a live-action show, two comic continuities (including the main one) and a currently ongoing cartoon, so far. so I think that change may lead to a better visibility SEO-wise than Kara Zor-El or Linda Danvers.

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • We now have leads, or | Overview = , a short intro that's above the ToC
      • Notices: reader notice top, editor notice bottom

      Totally over my head, but I hope it'll improve things.

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • No navboxes on character pages

      Okay... So If I see a navbox on a character page, any character page, I should remove it?

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • No copied powers section for every minor member of an alien race --> powers on Race page.

      How should it be done, then?

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • Ditch height, weight categories, maybe even hair and eye color.

      It sounds reasonable. Hair and eye color seem harmless, but height and weight look somewhat useless. It isn't like artists look them up before drawing a character. Big Barda is supposed to be shorter than Superman, but Michael Turner had Barda tower over Clark.

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • Slashes in categories: New Earth/Characters, Captain Atom/Titles (or /Comics)

      Okay.

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • One top spot for disambigs, current version, on the right. Infobox-style. Current layout is not portable, and two-image version never will be.

      Got it. I hope.

      Current layout is not portable... You know, I can never see the top row in my mobile. I guess this is because.

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • Create a top row with 3-5 most important alternates, with explanation to their significance

      Can I ask some examples, please? I'm not sure on how going about it, and I don't want to make a mess.

      Tupka217 wrote:

      • Ditch AICQ except on main versions.

      Okay.

      I'm surprised the templates are giving issues. I found them quite useful when I started editing.

        Loading editor
    • Here's some select replies:

      • Supergirl isn't a top search. The only addition we made was Shazam, for obvious reasons.
      • For leads/overviews, see for example Batman (Bruce Wayne). A nice intro above the ToC.
      • Powers sections would be, for example for Kryptonians, just be a link "Kryptonian Physiology" that goes to the powers section on the race page, with maybe a brief explanation "this character has all the basic powers of his race". Categories can still be added with a template. This also gets rid of the ugly habint of having mainstream references on adaptation/Elseworld pages.
      • On height: we keep the stat. We just remove Category:Height.
        Loading editor
    • I tried to change Supergirl's Disambig page according the new rules, but I can't figure out how put the top image on the right. Or how to do it infobox-style. What am I doing wrong?

        Loading editor
    • It requires a reworking of the template first.

        Loading editor
    • Also a lot of this is proposals more than rules. Only a couple of these things have been implemented so far. Doesn’t hurt to start editing with them in mind though.

        Loading editor
    • A FANDOM user
        Loading editor
Give Kudos to this message
You've given this message Kudos!
See who gave Kudos to this message
Community content is available under CC-BY-SA unless otherwise noted.

Bring Your DC Movies Together